EPISODE S.5, E.6

Heather (00:09):
Welcome back to another episode of the BrewDeck Podcast. I am your host today, Heather, and I am joined by Cheyenne, of course. Hi, Cheyenne.

Cheyenne (00:17):
Hello.

Heather (00:18):
How are you today?

Cheyenne (00:19):
Oh, I’m doing good. How are you?

Heather (00:22):
Pretty good. I’m excited about today’s topic.

Cheyenne (00:25):
I am too. I’ve learned a lot from all the awesome interviews that we did, so I’m very excited about today’s episode.

Heather (00:31):
Me too. Toby and Adam will be joining us a little bit later while we do our interviews, but it’s just the ladies for now. Before we dive into, [inaudible 00:00:41] we teased it, but aren’t going to tell anybody what the topic is for today.

Cheyenne (00:44):
I think they can see the topic in the episode title so they know what we’re talking about.

Heather (00:48):
Quite true. Quite true. We’re just going to hold off for a little bit longer. We are 13 days away from CBC. I can-

Cheyenne (00:57):
That is crazy.

Heather (00:57):
I know I’ve been saying this since we were 140 days away from-

Cheyenne (01:01):
I know.

Heather (01:02):
… but I honestly cannot believe that it is that close. So make sure you come by our booth. We are at booth 961. You can’t miss us. We’ve got a whole bunch of things going on. Live podcast recordings are one of them, so please come by and say hi. We’ve also collaborated with a lot of local Nevada breweries for a whole bunch of brews. And not just brews, we’ve also got hop water, hard seltzer, and cider, and they’ll all be served at our booth, so make sure you come by and see that.

Cheyenne (01:32):
Also at our booth, which I think is even more exciting, we’re going to have puppies at our booth this year.

Heather (01:36):
Puppies.

Cheyenne (01:37):
We’re really excited to sponsor the first ever Paws & Relax Lounge in the BrewExpo America, it’s bringing therapy dogs to trade show attendees. They will be visiting our booth throughout the trade show, so come pet some puppies, say hi to us on the podcast. It’s going to be a whole party over at our booth. We’re also-

Heather (01:57):
I might not even record anything. I might just be hanging out with the puppies the entire time-

Cheyenne (02:02):
Heather’s just in the corner with the puppies.

Heather (02:03):
If anybody needs me, I’ll be with the puppies.

Cheyenne (02:07):
We also have pinball again, so that’s going to be really fun. We need to do a podcast team pinball tournament, I think.

Heather (02:13):
Oh, you’re on. I think I’m actually terrible at pinball. I, for some reason, feel like Toby’s probably really good at pinball.

Cheyenne (02:20):
Oh, yeah. He definitely gives off those vibes, for sure.

Heather (02:23):
He does. He definitely does. And I think one of the most exciting things that is going on this year at CBC, we are a sponsor of the National Black Brewers Association CBC Tap Takeover at Beer Zombies Brewery. It’s on Tuesday, the 23rd, from 6:00 till 10:00. The Tap Takeover is going to feature 20 beers from Black-owned and operated breweries that are members of the National Black Brewers Association. So check that out. I think all the information is up on their website as well, so make sure to check that out and we are really excited that we get to go.

Cheyenne (02:55):
Definitely.

Heather (02:57):
All right. So I guess we can start with the episode. So before we dive into this, we do want to say that our lovely editor, Hailey, gave us some really good puns to introduce this episode. So we’re just going to tell you all the puns that Hailey came up with. So this episode, we’re talking about rye malt, and all the cool things that you can do with rye malt. So Hailey’s puns are ryes and shine.

Cheyenne (03:26):
Rye not.

Heather (03:28):
And ryediculously good. So thank you for those, Hailey. The puns only really come out of Adam’s mouth so they don’t sound as good when Cheyenne and I say them, but we really wanted to make sure everybody got to hear the amazing puns. We do have some really cool guests today. We’ve got Spike Buckowski from Terrapin Brewing, he is the founder and VP of brewing development, to talk about the very first beer that they launched, which was a rye pale ale. We also have our resident distilling guru, Geoff Fischer, territory manager at Country Malt Group, and making his podcast debut, Mac Remington was a production supervisor over at Canada Malting talking about malting rye. So let’s dive in.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
I am glad to have this dude back on. I haven’t talked to him in a long time. And he’s been around the block a little bit. And I miss him. Miss hanging out with him. Mr. Spike Buckowski, the founder and VP of brewing development at Terrapin Beer. How’s it going, Spike?

Brian “Spike” (04:34):
That’s me. Thank you so much for having me. I’m doing very well.

Speaker 3 (04:38):
Have you had to tar any parking lots recently?

Brian “Spike” (04:42):
No, no. I think those days are pretty much over.

Heather (04:47):
Okay, there’s a story there. I think we’re going to-

Brian “Spike” (04:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:48):
I thought I was the only one that knew about that.

Brian “Spike” (04:53):
There is a story about how John and I… And this is how Terrapin really came to life, and it goes full circle, and I’m sure we’ll talk about our brewery that is in the Truist Park at the Brave Stadium in Atlanta. But the idea behind Terrapin and the start of Terrapin actually happened after going to a Braves opening-day game back around 1999, ’98, somewhere in there. We had left for the day, our brewing positions, myself, my soon to be business partner, and our boss went to the Braves opening-day game. And then the next day, we came back to work and got scolded by the owner of the company, and it was our duty basically. He handed us three rollers and three buckets of tar. And for our punishment, we had to roll the brewery parking lot and re-tar it with the rollers.

(06:01)
So while we were doing that, there were obviously a lot of cussing and a lot of back and forth, and we’re like, “Well, screw this guy. We’ll start our own brewery.” So it just started as a joke that we were going to start this brewery, but the more we thought about it and the more we put our heads together, we came up with the idea to do so. There was a lot of bad names thrown around in the beginning, and then I went back to my Grateful Dead roots and have followed the Dead during college and after, and loved the Terrapin Station album. So we decided to run with Terrapin for the name of the brewery.

Speaker 5 (06:45):
Did the Braves win that game?

Brian “Spike” (06:47):
I don’t remember that, but in the end, I think we won.

Speaker 5 (06:54):
Yeah, it’s worked out all right over the years, right?

Brian “Spike” (06:57):
It worked out. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
What are we talking about today? Rye, right?

Heather (07:04):
Rye.

Speaker 5 (07:05):
That’s correct.

Brian “Spike” (07:05):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (07:07):
[inaudible 00:07:07] touched. It’s been a while. Anyways, Spike, it’s good to have you on. Absolutely good chatting with you again. And I was, again, thoroughly surprised when I learned you were jumping on with us. So, yeah. You told us a little bit about the history of Terrapin.

Brian “Spike” (07:22):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (07:22):
What are y’all working on? 22 years? Something like that?

Brian “Spike” (07:25):
Yeah, so April 20th will be our 22nd anniversary. So we definitely have come a long way with brewing. And we are talking about rye, and this goes back to the ’90s. So just to give you a little background about my experience, when I graduated college, I went to Southern Connecticut State University up in New Haven, Connecticut. And when I graduated, I moved to Florida. And my roommate actually moved to the West Coast, so he was in Berkeley, California. So after I found Florida too hot and flat, I had a fraternity brother who lived in Atlanta. So in ’92, I moved to Atlanta, but I was still in contact with my college roommate out in Berkeley at the time, and he was like, “Spike, have you ever tried home brewing?” And I’m like, “I have no idea what you’re talking about.” He goes, “You can make beer at home.” I’m like, “Okay.”

(08:32)
So when I moved to Atlanta, we actually had a basement, which was a great place to ferment the beer, and age the beer, and all that because it was obviously a cooler temperature in the basement. So I started home brewing back in probably about ’93, and I started incorporating rye. And it was pretty funny because the home brew shops thought I was nuts brewing with rye, especially back in the early ’90s. And the reason for it was I knew that in the Southeast, don’t forget, this was early ’90s, there was a lot of Bud, Miller, Coors drinkers down there that didn’t really understand the aggressiveness of hops and just a good pale ale. Right? So I was drinking Sierra Nevada at the time and wanted to do a beer. Didn’t know I was going to bring it obviously to the masses, but when I started playing around with rye, I noticed how it made the beer a little bit more crisp. It had a little spicy note, but the cool thing was it really dried your palate out.

(09:39)
So when I put the rye pale ale recipe together, I used a little cohumulone hops. So it was German Magnums at 60, and then we use a little bit of Fuggle at 30, and then EKG for the little flavoring edition, Cascade in the Whirlpool, and then dry hop with Amarillo. And what I came up with was a beer that had a beautiful aroma and upfront bitterness, but at the end, the rye just cleaned your palate up and made it this nice short bitterness and very clean palette where it was tolerant of people that didn’t understand at this point in time was a 35-BU beer, but back in the early ’90s was pretty aggressive. So I wanted to make something with a lot of flavor and aroma, but a very clean finish that people can actually drink and enjoy multiple beers or multiple pints, if you will.

Speaker 3 (10:42):
Sounds tasty. But it is 10 after 10 my time, but it sounds wonderful. Sounds great. So I might have missed this, Spike, but why did y’all decide, “Hey, this is the beer that we want to launch with”? Or I guess, let me back up. Is this the beer that, hey, this is the first one that y’all poured out of the tap-

Brian “Spike” (11:03):
Yeah. Yeah. This was it. I mean, we were going big or going home. When we launched the product in 2002, there really weren’t IPAs, right? Everything is IPA, IPA, IPA. So again, taking a page out of the Sierra Nevada playbook, I mean, it was pale ale, right? That was the aggressive style. But for me, like I said, it was just hard to make that work in the Southeast. So when we launched, it was our mantra to… One of our taglines was extreme beers for extreme tastes. So we really were pushing the envelope. But now, that beer is just a little baby pale ale. I mean, with all the big, huge IPAs that are around today, this one is just a baby little pale ale that anybody can drink.

Speaker 3 (12:07):
Yeah. Do you remember, I guess, year-one Terrapin, do you remember how many barrels y’all produced? Just curious.

Brian “Spike” (12:16):
Yeah, it was, I think 230 barrels. So basically… Yeah. Yeah. 230.

Speaker 3 (12:24):
Geez. And what are y’all doing now? Sorry to cut you off there, but-

Brian “Spike” (12:27):
Yeah, no problem. Close to 90. So we should be high 80s in 2024.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
Just small growth. Just small growth.

Brian “Spike” (12:35):
Yeah. Well, don’t forget, that’s 22 years, right?

Speaker 3 (12:37):
Right.

Brian “Spike” (12:38):
So the funny thing, back then, it was taboo being a contract brewer, right? So now it’s called gypsy brewing, right? You run around the world and you brew at other people’s facilities, and you have a family feud with your brother, and all of a sudden, you’re a popular gypsy brewer. But back then, we were just contract brewing. John and I didn’t have the money. I mean, we started this brewery on our credit cards. So there was a brewery probably about five miles from my house in Atlanta. So I went down there, started brewing rye pale ale draft only in 2002. And we started distribution in Athens, Georgia, draft only. And it was funny because we didn’t have a brewery, so we got a lot of crazy, crazy looks to how we were getting our beer to market. But the great part was is six months after we launched the rye pale ale, it actually won Best Pale Ale in the Country at the Great American Beer Festival.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
Wow.

Heather (13:55):
That’s a big deal.

Brian “Spike” (13:55):
So right out of the gate, people really loved the product, and so much so that we were pushing that brewery to its capacity. So probably about a year or so later or two years later, we had to find another facility. And this is a great story in itself. We looked up and down the East Coast and we found a brewer in Maryland, and it was Frederick Brewing Company, which changed to Flying Dog all those years ago, but we started brewing up there. And if you can imagine, John and I walking around Athens, and obviously there’s a university up there called the University of Maryland, and their mascot is terrapin, right?

(14:49)
So we would walk Downtown Athens and walk into places and go, “Hey, guys. Have you ever heard Terrapin Beer Company?” “No. No. What are you guys all about?” We say, “Well, we’ve got this product, it’s rye pale ale, and we’d love to get it on tap here.” And they go, “Oh, Terrapin? You guys from Maryland?” “No, no, no. We’re not from Maryland. We’re going to build a brewery right here in Athens, Georgia.” They’re like, “Oh, really? Athens? Well, where is it?” I’m like, “Well, we really don’t have a brewery right now.” And people would look at us and go, “Well, where is it being made?” And we would go, “Maryland.” So it was hard to peddle your product when people already had this conceived notion that we were from Maryland and we really weren’t, but we were called Terrapin, but we really didn’t have a brewery. It was hard. It was hard to get the product into people’s hands because it was a contract brewery. And back in early 2000s, that really wasn’t a popular thing back then like it is now.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
Yeah. And it sounds like from what you’re saying is, that first year, y’all just… With winning a GABF, and then out just working your ass off trying to get… You were just holding on by the seat of your pants. Were you just sitting back like, “Holy shit. This is really happening”?

Brian “Spike” (16:09):
Yeah. And it was the hard part too, because at the time, that brewery up in Maryland was going through some financial times and troubles, and basically for us to be able to brew, John and I would have to purchase the silo malt. So we would charge on our credit cards to get a batch of silo malt to brew our beer. And it was crazy, as you can imagine. I mean, we almost walked away from it multiple times, but we stuck it out and here we are, 22 years later, having this conversation.

Speaker 3 (16:48):
Oh, yeah. So how long were y’all producing that core, the rye pale ale? And at what point did you decide, “Hey, let’s take it out of commission for a while”?

Brian “Spike” (17:02):
Yeah, we were probably brewing that close to 12 years or so. So basically what happened was when the IPA craze happened, pale ales went away. So we changed our focus to IPAs. I mean, we were one of the first breweries in the country, if not the first brewery, to offer an IPA variety pack. And now they’re everywhere.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
What’s an IPA, Spike?

Brian “Spike” (17:29):
India pale ale.

Speaker 3 (17:30):
Oh, really?

Brian “Spike” (17:32):
Well, it depends. These days, I don’t know, the lines are a little blurred. If you want to have another talk sometime about what people call IPAs now, that’s probably another discussion. But back when I was around, I mean, Arrogant Bastard and just all these huge beers were coming out of California. And IPAs, it was no less than 70 BUs in an IPA. Now IPAs are 32 BUs.

Speaker 3 (18:02):
Really?

Brian “Spike” (18:04):
So, yeah. Those beers took over the landscape and the pale ale went away, and we basically turned our focus on IPAs. But like you said, the rye pale ale is slowly but surely coming back in draft form, and hopefully, someday, we can package it again. But right now, we’re still brewing some out of our second brewery.

Heather (18:32):
So you did repackage it a couple years ago though, didn’t you?

Brian “Spike” (18:38):
We did. I believe it was from the March Madness… So we do a competition every year. It’s going on right now where we put in our own bracket of beers that aren’t made at Terrapin anymore, and they basically all go in just like the college bracket, and they all go to the end. And then, yes, we brewed a batch and put it out there. So not sure who’s going to win this year, but we will find out.

Heather (19:07):
Were you surprised when that won?

Brian “Spike” (19:10):
No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. I mean, it is my sentimental favorite and it’s a lot of people’s sentimental favorite, so it was no surprise to me that it won.

Speaker 5 (19:24):
What is it about a rye ale that stands out for you? What is it that you like about it?

Brian “Spike” (19:31):
Well, I can’t speak for everybody’s rye, which there aren’t a lot anymore. I’m not sure if… What was the one? Was it Red Racer, Racer X or something from Bear Republic? They did an early-on rye. I just don’t remember the name of theirs. But for ours, like I mentioned before, all the flavor and aroma’s upfront, I also add a little bit of honey malt in there for some sweetness. So the first thing you do is smell this beautiful aroma of Amarillo. Take your first sip, it’s got that nice sweetness to it from the honey malt. I use some Munich in there and some biscuit just for some nutty notes.

(20:14)
And it’s got a pretty full palate. It ends at about three Plato. But then after you swallow, it doesn’t leave that big, lingering bitterness. It cleans up very quickly and you’re just ready for another sip. So I think with all those flavor combinations like that, it just makes for a very easy drinking beer, but it has flavor. And that’s the thing, I think as a brewer, you want people to drink more than one pint of your beers, right? If you go in and you go, “Oh, I’ve got this IPA that’s 110 BUs,” “Okay, that’s great. Can I get a four-ounce pour?” And then you’re done. Where us as brewers want you to drink multiple pints of our beer, so you got to make it drinkable.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
And you said you had this on tap right now at where?

Brian “Spike” (21:03):
Yeah. So we’ve got two facilities. One is in Atlanta at Truist Park where the Braves play, and then of course the mothership in Athens, Georgia. So they’ll be on tap there. But now, we’re doing a handful of accounts in Athens, Georgia. So if that gets traction, then we may put it out in Atlanta as well. But we just focus in Athens on draft at select accounts who want it.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
That’s awesome. So just working with rye malt in general, I think there’s a lot of breweries that have played around with it a bit, and then obviously see quite a bit more of it on the distilling side. So what challenges do you typically have to work with when you’re brewing with rye malt?

Brian “Spike” (21:54):
Yeah. I mean, rye, I call it the quicksand of malt is what I call it. But in our rye pale ale, there’s only 10%. So we don’t have to use any rice hulls. I would say anything over 10%, you better start adding some rice hulls for your lautering efficiency. But it was funny, because I do collaborations all around the world, and I have stuck many a matches where people just didn’t believe me. Because that’s one of my things, if I do a collaboration, I always sprinkle a little rye into the malt bill.

(22:34)
But I remember brewing with Left Hand… Gosh, this was probably 10 years ago or so, and they didn’t use any rice hulls and it was probably a three-hour runoff. But the crazy part is that it held on to so much work or last runnings in the mash that when we opened to grain out, it just spilled all over the brewhouse floor and it was an hour to clean this stuff up. It was just like quicksand. It was pretty funny. So, yeah. It can get really nasty. But like I said, 10% usually isn’t that hard. But I would say once you get up to 15% or so, I would start to introduce some rice hulls for lauterability.

Heather (23:16):
Is there a lot of trial and error to get to that 10% sweet spot?

Brian “Spike” (23:23):
Yeah. I mean, brewing at home, it probably took me a half a dozen times or so, because I didn’t want it to overpower either. So I like everything nuanced. Even when I make crazy beers like our Wake-n-Bake French Toast Stout, when we’re adding just crazy flavors, I just want all the flavors to come in and combine and not overpower each other. So everything to me is about balance. And I think even if you make a very aggressive beer, as long as it’s balanced, people are able to drink it. So if you get something super hoppy but can back it up with some complex malt character, it’s a lot easier on the palate than just a one dimensional hot bomb. So, yeah. I probably started with about 20% and just kept backing it off until it just complemented the sweetness from the honey malt, and then just, like I said, try to just tune it in where everything was really nice and balanced.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
Have you messed around with any of the crystal malts or are you just, when you do brew with it, just brewing with your old-school regular rye malt?

Brian “Spike” (24:38):
I don’t think I’ve used any of the crystal ryes. I’d have to go back and look at some recipes, but usually it’s malted rye. I’m playing around with a rice lager at the stadium where I’m adding just a touch of flaked rye as well. So I have played with the flaked rye, but 9 times out of 10, it’s just the straight-up malted rye.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
Good stuff.

Heather (25:10):
All right. So you said anniversary is coming up in [inaudible 00:25:14] any big plans?

Brian “Spike” (25:19):
We do have big plans. So there’ll be a lot of music happening. I believe it starts at 11:00, it goes 11:00 to 8:00 on April 20th. We’re working with our partner, Rhizome Productions. So these guys are coming in and setting up shop, and they have booked all the bands, and they are going to basically wrangle the entertainment. We’re a brewer. I don’t want to start booking bands and things like that. So we like to collaborate with people who know that side of the business so we can concentrate on beer and beer sales while they can concentrate on setting up the event and hiring the bands and stuff. So we’re super excited about that.

Speaker 3 (26:03):
Sounds awesome. Well, cool. Spike, appreciate you jumping on with us and talking a little bit about the rye pale.

Brian “Spike” (26:11):
Yeah, sure thing.

Speaker 3 (26:12):
And, yeah. Continued success. I’m glad to see y’all are still kicking and doing well out there and hopefully we can run into each other soon.

Brian “Spike” (26:20):
Absolutely. Well, anytime you are in the Atlanta or Athens area, let me know because, like I said, our mothership is in Athens, Georgia, and then we’ve got our pilot brewery down at the Braves Stadium at Truist Park in Atlanta.

Speaker 3 (26:36):
Yeah. And for the listeners out there who haven’t made the trek out there and gotten a chance to visit Terrapin and have some of their wonderful beers, please do. It’s good stuff out there. Spike, I really appreciate you jumping on again and talking to us a little bit about rye and, yeah, look forward to seeing you on our next adventure somewhere.

Brian “Spike” (26:54):
All right. Cheers, guys. Appreciate it.

Heather (26:56):
We are back and we are very lucky to be joined by our resident distilling guru, Geoff Fischer. Welcome, Geoff.

Geoff (27:05):
Awesome. Thanks for having me back.

Heather (27:08):
So we’re going to jump right into it. We want to talk about what rye is like in the distilling side of things. We’ve actually discussed it in the brewing side of things. So what does rye look like in the distilling world?

Geoff (27:20):
So in most of distilling, especially in the United States, rye is going to be an unmalted grain. So it’s mostly unmalted, just like everything else in most large-scale distilling. A lot of the brands you’ll see on the shelf, most of the grains in there are going to be unmalted. So malted rye is used even by some large distilleries for special runs or to add additional flavors to what they’re doing. But compared to a brewery who would never really use very much unmalted rye, it’s very prominent in distilling.

Heather (28:01):
So can you let us know where rye whiskey… I guess we’re just going to pretty much talk about rye whiskey is the most popular.

Geoff (28:11):
Well, yeah. The history really is it’s the oldest real whiskey that was made in the United States. You can trace its roots back to about 1750, which was several decades or more before the invention, so to speak, of bourbon. This was really because rye grew very well in the Mid-Atlantic states. So think George Washington’s plantations, and even up into Pennsylvania, rye grew really, really well. And whiskey was a function of a way of preserving grains in a different way. So it really became popular then. And then it really grew in popularity during the revolution. Prior to the revolution, rum would’ve been the most popular spirit by far in the American colonies. Of course, with the revolution and naval blockades, you couldn’t bring rum in. So we had to really get back to our Scots-Irish roots in those areas and begin whiskey-distilling, grain-distilling.

(29:14)
So that’s the history of when it began. It was quite popular even through the early-1800s. In fact, about three times the amount of rye whiskey was made in the 1810s, 1820s compared to bourbon. But it slowly began to diminish over time up until it was, honestly, roughly about 200 years later, that rye really has come back into prominence. Rye whiskey itself, not the rye used in bourbons, but a traditional rye whiskey has really become popular, let’s say, in the last 20 years.

Heather (29:50):
So I read somewhere that it didn’t really come out of prohibition as well as some other spirits did. It didn’t have a resurgence right after prohibition.

Geoff (29:59):
It did not. So part of the problem is rye is difficult to deal with. Rye is a much harder grain to deal with than corn or wheat, and of course, malted barley. So especially during prohibition, moonshiners, illegal stills, rye was harder to deal with. So they wanted stuff that was easy to deal with, that was still somewhat palatable, and so rye fell out of favor. And again, it didn’t really come back until after the 2000s, truly. There was people that always liked it and there distilleries that always made it, but it was a smaller portion compared to bourbons.

Cheyenne (30:41):
Yeah, we’re definitely seeing more of a resurgence of the rye whiskey right now. We were talking a little bit about rye used in beer, can you talk to us about why rye is more popular in a whiskey format than it is in beer?

Geoff (30:53):
So for a distiller, it’s actually easier to deal with than a brewer. I’m sure you touched base on this, but in a beer, you have to separate the grain from the liquid. So you have to have a liquid that’s flowable at a decent rate and doesn’t leave a beer that’s thick. Rye does all of those things in any type of mash. It absorbs more water than any other grain, and it has usually the highest level of beta-glucan, which is a soluble fiber. Think Metamucil in water, it gets thicker the longer you sit with it.

(31:29)
So the same thing happens with rye. So in breweries, you typically don’t see higher than 20%, 25%. We have seen beers obviously that push those limits, and if you use some enzymes, it gets easier. But rye’s difficult for brewers because of that separation of liquid from solid. In distilling, in most large-scale American distilling, even in a lot of craft distillers, they ferment… So they mash with the grain obviously, then they ferment with the grain, and they distill with the grain. So even if it gets a little thicker, it gets a little gooey, they can just water that down a bit and still pump it in a still and keep the agitation going and still come out with a 95% rye whiskey, which is fairly common. So it really has to do with how they process the fermented mash or the converted mash, so to speak.

Heather (32:30):
Interesting. So you said brewers are usually using tops 20% to 25% of rye. What is the percentage of rye used to classify it as an American rye whiskey?

Geoff (32:41):
So in the United States, there’s really two major components that make up the definition of what is a rye whiskey. The first is the percentage of rye must contain at least 51% rye, and it can’t go in the barrel lower than 40% alcohol. So 80 proof. Bourbon has a slightly different set of rules, but those are the two main ones when you talk about classification of do you want to put rye whiskey on your [inaudible 00:33:08].

Heather (33:09):
And what are the characteristics of it? What would you be looking for a rye whiskey in American rye whiskey to taste like?

Geoff (33:14):
So that’s great. Rye is typically known as being spicy. And you can pick up a lot of… It’s not shot spicy, it is… Think Christmas spicy to a point. Think lots of heavy use of the spice cabinet without inducing heat with Americans because there’s something spicy. So it has a lot of strong flavors to it compared to, let’s say, the other great American whiskey of bourbon that’s popular, where bourbon is much sweeter because of the higher use of corn. It has a smoother taste on the palate, a slightly sweeter taste. Rye, some people can describe it as a little harsh and that’s not a bad descriptor of it. It meant in a good way. It’s really very robust in flavor. And the higher the rye used, the more robust that rye flavor is. And again, it’s typically classified as spicy. There’s some floral notes and stuff to it too, but…

Cheyenne (34:20):
So before we hit record, we were chatting a little bit about rye. You were saying that you prefer to have rye in your cocktails?

Geoff (34:29):
So traditionally, that’s what rye was really for, right? Rye was… Again, and I hate using the term harsh, because I don’t want to really give it a negative connotation. It was more robust in flavor. And so it was typically not drank straight. That was left to bourbon. Bourbon’s softer, sweeter, contains usually less rye or, potentially, no rye in it. So that is really great, neater with a little ice cube. Rye traditionally was added to cocktail.

(35:02)
So if you’re going to make a sweet cocktail, sometimes adding bourbon to that cocktail can make it seem too sweet or the flavor of the bourbon could get washed out. Where if you put in a very robust-tasting rye whiskey, then you allow all those beautiful spicy notes and some of the other characteristics to really bloom, and as a counterpoint to some of those sweet additives, even simple syrups or different flavored syrups or whatever that you would put in a cocktail. And even if you think traditional cocktails like Manhattans or even old-fashioneds often were made with rye in the beginning because it allowed that you really got a good taste of the whiskey and it allowed the whiskey to come through more than just the sweet additives.

Cheyenne (35:49):
Yeah. Well it is 8:00 AM where we’re recording right now, and now I want an old-fashioned, so thanks for that.

Geoff (35:58):
You’re welcome.

Cheyenne (35:58):
So switching gears a little bit back to the production side of things. What is the difference in using rye in distilling versus other types of grains?

Geoff (36:07):
So same problems that you see in a brewhouse, rye can be difficult to deal with. Unmalted, it is very hard. You really need a hammer mill, pretty much. You can do some other milling with it, but it’s traditionally run through some type of hammer mill. It’s a really hard grain. Because it absorbs so much liquid compared to wheat or barley or corn, and it has so much soluble fiber, it does thicken them some. And so oftentimes you have to dilute it a bit more to make it more flowable, especially if you’re talking high-rye whiskey, right? 95%, 96% rye. Or again, you can use some extraneous enzymes, but the large commercial distillers typically don’t. And there’s nothing wrong with adding an extraneous enzyme. That’s perfectly fine. That’s why they’re made. So you have to handle it a bit differently.

(37:04)
Wheat, also relatively high in beta-glucans, but typically doesn’t have the water absorption rate that rye does. And then barley or barley malt, the most typical type of barley you would find in an American-style whiskey, does absorb some, but it also has some husk material and a few other things. And so it can help keep it seem a more fluid mash in which to deal with. Those are the main problems that a distiller would face, is just the thickness of it all and the processing of the grain itself and getting it prepared. But they hammer mill most things anyway in large distilleries, so that’s usually overcome.

Cheyenne (37:48):
And so you had mentioned the use of enzymes. Can you talk a little bit more about that and how that helps?

Geoff (37:54):
Sure. To process rye, the most predominant enzyme you would use would be a beta-glucanase. So beta-glucans are a soluble fiber. Like I said, it’s what you think of in a Metamucil you mix with water and it’s liquidy for a minute, and you give it a second and it starts to sludge up. Well, that comes from beta-glucans in the psyllium husk and other things. Well, you have that again in rye and it is in your mash. So if you add a beta-glucanase enzyme, it breaks down those soluble fibers and thins out the mash quite a bit. So it makes it even more easily pumped. You can usually keep without having to dilute it with water to make it thinner. You can just make a thinner mash altogether with that. That’s what the enzyme would be primarily used in rye.

Heather (38:48):
Awesome. Any tips and tricks you would recommend to distillers when wanting to work with rye?

Geoff (38:54):
Sure. Again, if I personally own a distillery, I don’t have a moral problem with using extraneous enzymes. So I think they’re a tool, and I don’t think they affect the flavor of the whiskey at all. And if you’re a small distiller, you’re probably using some type of enzyme anyway, either a high-temp amylase or an AG enzyme. So using a beta-glucanase enzyme is perfectly fine. That’s one thing that I would do if I was looking to produce high-rye whiskeys, even if I’m doing it on solid, but especially if I’m trying to separate solid from liquid. The other advice I would use is I would personally use some rye malt. I think it’s rye malt brings some because it is run through a kiln, so it has some of those Maillard reactions. They’re really low, but you’re going to get some toasty little character to that, just a different flavor profile. So I think it can help round out the rye we’re talking about and add additional flavors than if it’s just 95% unmalted rye and a little bit of barley malt.

(40:05)
For enzyme, I think adding some rye malt can add complexity to your rye whiskey. And again, we do have some large distilling customers that do add some or some that make particular runs. And we also see it used a lot more in craft distillers because, of course, they’re trying to create flavors that might differentiate them from a large distillery’s product. They want to create something that makes theirs unique and they want to make a different flavor profile so their customers really enjoy what they do. So those would be my two biggest hints that I would use or I would do personally if I was going to craft a rye whiskey is enzymes and the use of some rye malt and even specialty rye malt. There’s crystal ryes and biscuit, heavily toasted ryes, and there’s even chocolate ryes. And especially for craft distilling, all of that should be on the table. There’s some really great stuff out there.

Heather (41:10):
Chocolate rye. I don’t know why that sounds delicious to me.

Geoff (41:15):
If you taste it in a spirit, there’s definitely a roasty chocolate note to it, even on the white spirit as it comes off the stills. And it does really nicely in a barrel. It holds up. So you’re seeing more chocolate malts and chocolate ryes being used in craft distilling, because again, it’s something that truly sets yours to be unique.

Heather (41:37):
That’s so cool. Well, how about a little fun question. What are your favorite rye whiskeys to drink?

Geoff (41:45):
So I lived in Salt Lake City for almost 30 years. I’m a huge fan of Rendezvous Rye from High West. I think they do some incredible things with rye, the Double Rye’s great, and some of the different blends that they do. So I’m a big fan of the High West Rendezvous Rye. For the large commercial distilleries, Sazerac Rye is always a classic. And especially grading cocktails, even thinking the traditional Sazerac cocktail, the Sazerac Rye whiskey does really well in that. Bulleit Rye is another great. That’s really a high-rye, 95% rye. So that’s a go-to and is usually sitting in my [inaudible 00:42:22].

Heather (42:23):
That’s amazing. Well, thank you so much, Geoff. We’re always very, very [inaudible 00:42:28] we’re very, very lucky to have you as part of our team, and thank you for always coming on and teaching us all about the distilling world.

Geoff (42:37):
It’s always my pleasure. It’s a very passionate world for me. I love our craft distillers.

Heather (42:45):
Well, can’t wait to see you in a few weeks and we can maybe share a rye.

Geoff (42:49):
That sounds delicious. [inaudible 00:42:50].

Heather (42:53):
And now we are joined by Mac Remington. Mac is making his BrewDeck Podcast debut. So, welcome, Mac.

Mac (42:59):
Thank you.

Heather (43:01):
Mac is a production supervisor at Canada Malting. He’s working in [inaudible 00:43:05] and he’s making rye malt. So we wanted to bring Mac on to tell us all about the differences in working with rye versus working with barley. So, Mac, can you just introduce yourself a little bit, tell us what got you into malting and how you ended up at Canada Malting?

Mac (43:21):
Sure. Yeah. I started in the brewing industry, like a good chunk of us in the malting industry, and I went to brewing school at UC Davis, developed my passion for malting and brewing in university, starting the homebrew, lived in Brazil for a year, gone into homebrewing with some guys out there. When I was finishing up my degree in supply chain, decided I wanted to take brewing more on a professional level, so I got my degree in brewing at UC Davis, and then continued to… I got a gig with Molson Coors in Toronto and ended up working with a variety of their craft breweries throughout Canada from Creemore Springs to Granville Island in Vancouver, BC. I did that for about… I think it was five years of brewing and learning the business there.

(44:27)
And then I got a great opportunity to go to what’s actually our current competitor, Prairie Malt in Biggar, Saskatchewan. They’re a similar-sized plant to what we have here in Calgary. They do about 200,000 tons a year. Not as many specialty products as we do in Calgary, but that’s where I learned malting primarily two-row and Japanese export malt. And that was a [inaudible 00:44:53] plant, so there were two separate malt plants there. And that’s where I learned from… I think it was yet 2019 to 2022. And then I took on a role here in Calgary. So I’ve been in Calgary for about two and a half years and I just took opportunities as they came about and wanted to learn as many different malting systems as possible and learned the business from the ground up. So, yeah. I’ve been malting now for going on five years. So brewing for five years and malting for five years. And-

Cheyenne (45:38):
Oh, that’s a very storied career you have. That’s very cool.

Mac (45:43):
Yeah, I got to move around quite a bit. Molson was a great company and knew that I was eager to take on further challenges and grow my knowledge on brewing. And then I just wanted to take the next step and learn malting, not because I knew everything in brewing, just because the opportunities aligned and Vancouver, BC, to be honest, was getting expensive-

Heather (46:12):
I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Mac (46:12):
I thought it might be a good idea to move to Central Canada and move to Saskatchewan just for a little bit calmer lifestyle and a little bit more laid back and just take on an opportunity with a great malting company and still have lots of good friends and contacts in Saskatchewan, and really learned a lot about grain harvesting and learned a lot about the Barley Belt and just the culture that surrounds barley growing in Canada, and that was the prime region and got some good exposure there. And then the town of 1,500 got a little bit boring at times for me. And so I needed something in the middle of where I was from Vancouver to small town Saskatchewan was nice, but then it got a little boring, so I ended up moving out to take on an opportunity with the Calgary plant here with Canada Malting. So that’s the journey.

Cheyenne (47:18):
That’s awesome.

Heather (47:19):
[inaudible 00:47:19] can you tell us where Saskatchewan is?

Mac (47:25):
[inaudible 00:47:22]. Just north of Montana. Well, it’s all beautiful barley-growing region. So-

Heather (47:32):
Yeah, I grew up right in Saskatchewan. I grew up in Moose Jaw.

Cheyenne (47:36):
Moose Jaw, which is my favorite fact about Heather, because it’s the most Canadian thing I’ve ever heard. Well, we are very lucky to have you at Canada Malting. So we want to jump right in. We’re talking about rye today. Mac, can you tell us a little bit about the differences between malting rye versus malting barley?

Mac (47:56):
Yeah. I mean, we could talk for hours about the differences. And to try to keep it short and simple, it’ll be a challenge. But just for some perspective, about 5% of our malt production on site, as a whole, is malted rye. So we do about 3,000 to 4,000 tons of it a year. It fluctuates every year, but the demand seems to be growing. So we’re really getting our process dialed in. But there’s more effort involved in producing rye than typical two-row base malt. There’s a lot-

Cheyenne (48:41):
That’s the sense that I get. We spoke to both a distilling expert and a brewer, and that’s the sense that we got from speaking with them about using ryes. There’s a lot more effort that goes into it. And I’m sure it’s the same, like you said, on the malting side.

Mac (48:52):
Yeah. So every year, we basically… I wouldn’t say the quality, but the parameters of a raw material do fluctuate a little bit just like barley. But with rye, we really try to focus on bringing in as plump rye as possible. So if we can get 89%, 90% plump rye, that’s going to make our job a lot easier. But some years, your plumpness isn’t as plump. You might only have 70% or 80% plump. And what happens then is that the kernels are even smaller than they typically are and they tend to compact a lot easier.

(49:40)
So starting in the steep tanks, we only do one immersion. So once it’s underwater, we steep in, it’s underwater, and we set a target for around 37% moisture. So our operators are sampling as early as seven or eight hours into the first immersion. There’s a lot of factors that affect the uptake of moisture into the kernel, and seasonalities are one of them. So in the winter time, you might be able to hit your moisture targets in 10 or 11 hours. And in the summertime, you could maybe hit them at least a couple hours earlier than that. So it all depends on what your water reservoir temperatures are at, and that all stems from how warm or cold your well water is, which can change depending on the water table and the season.

(50:38)
So you have to be very careful not to overshoot your moisture as with any grain, but especially for rye, the consequences can be devastating because if your water’s a little bit warmer than you’d like, maybe around that 11 or 12 degrees versus your 9 or 10 degrees, if your operators aren’t efficient in grabbing those samples, your rye can pick up moisture too quick. And if you start getting into 40%, 41%, 42% moisture, your rye will become very soft, and it already is fairly soft because it doesn’t have a husk. So what’ll happen is those smaller kernels and that softer outer shell will actually start to collapse and compact together. Even when it’s underwater, there’s compaction that’s possible and you’ll never get it out of your tanks. And when-

Heather (51:37):
Can you just… Sorry to interrupt you.

Mac (51:41):
Yeah, no problem.

Heather (51:42):
Can you just do that in comparison to barley? Because I didn’t know there was only one immersion for the steep when it comes to rye and-

Mac (51:49):
Yeah. And I’ve heard of others doing smaller double immersions, two really, really small double immersions. But here in [inaudible 00:52:02] we run one single immersion. We do the same with wheat as well. And that could be just more due to the nature of our system, but it’s what’s been working for us. So we basically steep in, and once we hit our moisture, we drop all of our tanks. So we have 14 steep tanks. Each one holds about 16 to 20 tons to make a total of about 180 tons that we steep into our system.

(52:32)
But the good part about having many smaller conical tanks is that the head pressure’s a lot lower on the grains themselves versus having a few larger tanks or one really large tank that has all the grain in it at once. These more smaller tanks are more optimal for specialty grains like rye and wheat because it’s less hydrostatic pressure on the grains themselves. So long story short is that, yeah, we don’t typically have that much issue dropping our tanks as long as we keep our moisture low enough, but we do drop everything altogether. So we don’t drain the first immersion, and then drop the grain like any other barley malt. We drop everything together with all of the first immersion into the germ vessel by gravity.

Heather (53:28):
That’s crazy-

Mac (53:29):
And the reason we do that is because we don’t want to risk, when you drain that first immersion, what’ll happen is that all that rye will settle. And by the time it takes to drain that whole first immersion, you’re getting a lot of extra compaction, even in those small tanks that you will get a lot of compaction, and if your moisture is just a little overshot… And it’s not a perfect science, because your sample is only your sample, so you’re only sampling a small portion of the tank. So you might think that you have 36% or 37% moisture, but you might actually have 40% or 42% in some parts of the tank depending on how it’s settled. And you might have some areas that are so compacted together that you might even have trouble physically knocking those chunks off the sidewalls of the tank. That’s how sticky and difficult rye can be.

(54:27)
So we try to get most of the grain down with the water to reduce the amount of effort it takes to empty the tanks. But usually, it takes us about 45 minutes to drop regular barley down to our germ vessels. Rye can take up to four or five hours, I would say, quite regularly, it takes that long to get the tanks down. So like I say, it’s a very manual strenuous process to move this product anywhere just because of that exact reason, just compacts very easily.

Heather (55:07):
When it comes to germination, what’s the germ time on rye malt?

Mac (55:14):
Yep. So minimum, four days. So we have a production scheduled to maintain. So rye is not the only product that we produce. If we just produce rye, it might be a different case, but we produce other products like distillers, oats, wheat, red wheat, and we have to keep in mind that these other products are valuable as well. So we have to maintain a schedule. So it’s four days germination for everything. Within that four days, we can manipulate humidity, sprinkles, turning regimes, airflow and temperature to either speed up or slow down the modification process to cater to each type of product in the specialty house.

(56:09)
So we can’t just say, “Oh, rye gets three days germination,” or “Rye gets six days germination and something else gets four.” Everything gets four days germination because our system runs on a 24-hour cycle, so we have to load a kiln and unload a kiln every day as well as we need to steep in a batch every day and drop a batch every day. So that’s just the way that the system’s set up. There’s not much flexibility in terms of just cutting a day or two out of germination if we wanted to do that. So we’re fixed to four days germination, but all the other variables we manipulate to optimize each specialty product in germination.

Cheyenne (56:56):
And can you talk to us a little bit about kilning, the amount of time and the temperature that you’re using for rye?

Mac (57:03):
Yeah. So rye retains moisture quite easily, and that is something that we need to keep in mind when we go to kiln. Because there’s no husk and that you do get some compaction in germination, you tend to retain a little bit extra moisture in the germ bed, which means that when you go to the kiln, you’re carrying that to the kiln, which as part of the Maillard reaction, that’s a fairly key component to creating color, whether intentional or not. So usually, we run our kiln fans as high as possible to limit stewing in the kiln to limit color pickups.

(57:51)
So color pickup’s one of the biggest things in rye production that we have to watch because it generates color very easily. And a lot of that has to do with the way that the grains settle in on each other in the kiln as well as germ, and it traps that moisture and almost… It’s not steaming, but we call it stewing where it’s just that a little bit more of a stagnant or interrupted airflow. So your differential pressure below the bed and above the bed can be quite high, especially at the beginning of kilning. And that’s where you have potential for stewing and color pickup. So we run high fans and lower temperature set points to try to mitigate that. And we’ve got our recipes fairly dialed in over the years. But I think on our last batches of rye, we didn’t go much above 78 degrees Celsius on the cure, where it’s with our pale malts and export two-row and all that, we go up to sometimes 87 or 88 degrees Celsius, 85 degrees Celsius on your cure.

Cheyenne (59:06):
So going back, you had mentioned the stewing. Is this just particular to rye or is this something that you worry about with other barley types as well?

Mac (59:19):
Any batch can be susceptible to it. It’s just with the huskless varieties, your bed density is just so much higher. The airflow restriction is increased, so your risk of stewing is higher. So we try to get ahead of that and to mitigate it with higher airflow and lower temperatures to try to maximize that. We also have, obviously, a turning machine. It’s a germ machine that has helices, little screws that allow airflow. So what we’ll do is we’ll run that on a regular sequence so that that kiln machine will actually run through on a set regime to allow airflow to move through the bed. So instead of just leaving the bed stagnant, we will run that machine through portions of the bed. If we notice that there’s some slightly wetter sections or some sections that are a little bit more compacted, we’ll run that machine through to allow more airflow to move through. That also keeps your cycle times on track as well, and limits color pickup as well.

(01:00:36)
So there’s lots of little tricks we can do. Our system is from the 1950s, so we’re not a super modern specialty plant by any means. We have a lot of add-ons to our plant over the years, but really we’re dealing with some older equipment and whatnot, and we’re just trying to make our plant work the best it can for us to deliver a good quality product. So we are limited to some degree in the age of our equipment, but we do make it work.

Heather (01:01:07):
Awesome. And we appreciate you for doing so. So when we talk barley, we talk a lot about varietals… Or varieties, excuse me. I’m a wine drinker, so I go varietals. Copeland, Metcalfe, and so forth. Is there a specific rye variety that works best for malting?

Mac (01:01:28):
So we don’t explore too many different varieties of rye. The one that we’ve been using in the last couple of years has been the Reifel variety. It’s a winter variety that we source from Southeast Alberta, and that’s what I’m used to using and that’s what we’ve been getting. There’s a lot of other rye that’s grown in the province of Manitoba. But from my understanding, a lot of that rye goes into the food market, the baking market. And we don’t source that because, from what I understand, there’s a lot more molds like Fusarium and whatnot that can cause quality and performance issues in the malt house. So we stick with Southeast Alberta where it’s a little bit of a drier harvest season and better quality for us to malt. So that’s what we’re used to using here.

Heather (01:02:29):
Oh, that’s sweet. Well, I want to say thank you so much, Mac, for coming on and just sharing your rye-malting expertise. So [inaudible 01:02:35] really appreciate it.

Mac (01:02:35):
Yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me.

Heather (01:02:39):
Well, that is a wrap on this ryediculously good episode of the BrewDeck Podcast. Thank you to Spike, Mac, and Geoff for joining us today and sharing their expertise with us. A little thing we want to let you know, in case you missed it, the palettes that we have all been waiting for have finally landed in our warehouses, all of our warehouses. We are pleased to officially welcome Castle Malting to the CMG portfolio. It’s bringing their highly-regarded line of Chateau malt products to the North America’s brewers and distillers. So make sure to contact your sales rep to learn more and to try them out on your next brew.

Cheyenne (01:03:14):
That is something that the folks behind the scenes have been working on for a very long time.

Heather (01:03:18):
Very long time.

Cheyenne (01:03:20):
We’ve been very excited about it and we finally get to talk about it. So super excited about that. Last bit of news before we wrap, the San Francisco World Spirits Competition was this past week, we’re still waiting to hear the results, but we wanted to remind you about our Filson Vest Gold Medal Program, which awards a custom vest for each double gold in a whiskey category at the San Francisco World Spirits Competition with at least 80% of the malt inclusion being Great Western Malting or Canada Malting Co. ingredients. So very excited about that. It’s a fun time of year to see all of those Filson Vests come out.

Heather (01:03:53):
It really is. And as we head to CBC, it is World Beer Cup time too. So stay tuned for more Filson Vest Gold Medals that are going to be going out. Thanks, everybody, and we will see you in Vegas.