EPISODE S.3, E.13

[AMERICAS NEXT TAP MODEL]

Toby:
Ah, we’re talking all things, the tap room experience today. Really excited. I haven’t visited tap room in a long time, but I need to get back out there. And I’ve got limitations, we’ll talk about those here in a little bit. But formal hello to my sidekicks today, Cheyenne, Heather, and Grant, how you all doing?

Heather:
Hi.

Grant:
Doing great.

Cheyenne:
Hello. Doing great.

Toby:
Nice.

Grant:
I feel like I visited probably two tap rooms for you Toby just to cancel it out, make up for it.

Toby:
That’s just today, right?

Grant:
Yeah, probably.

Heather:
I was going to say, I was at one yesterday.

Toby:
Man. Well, it’s really cool that we’re finally talking about this, because it is something that I think, number one, there’s people out that are doing some really cool stuff at tap rooms. Obviously, there’s a lot of competition, right? You got to do something that sets yourself apart from everyone else, and kind of be like a chameleon and adapt to the area you live in, for instance.

Toby:
I’m really excited that we’re doing this. We’re going to have a couple of brewers and brewery staff/owners folks come on and join us to talk about, what we think makes their tap room unique, and what they integrate into their location to not only bring people in the door, give them a great experience, enjoying craft beer, and obviously keeping them coming back. So, really excited to talk today.

Toby:
And we’ve kind of peppered in some stuff out on social media, just poking around, trying to get some feedback from the listeners out there of what they think is a really kick ass tap room experience, what makes it unique? And I’ve gotten some really fantastic feedback. And again, we’ll kind of fold this into some of the things we think are great and the… Not all that, but the surveys, if you will, that we put out there, but… I wish I visited more tap rooms, but again, I’m a bit handcuffed, I got a couple of kids. I like to find those tap rooms I can go and enjoy and let the kids run wild, but I’ve got a couple of unique kids, one, particularly, that I got to keep an eye on all the time. So, it’s like, I got to go somewhere where they have like padded walls and a lock on the door.

Grant:
I feel like that’s almost a thing now, right? I’ve seen some straight up like pro park grade level playgrounds at a couple of different breweries here in Texas, so…

Toby:
Yes.

Grant:
I don’t think you’re alone.

Toby:
Yeah. I think there’s some out there that do acts throwing and stuff. I mean, that would be just a complete nightmare with kids.

Heather:
I don’t know a lot about raising kids, but I just feel like acts throwing probably not the best idea, but…

Toby:
No.

Heather:
Again.

Toby:
Or like skeet shooting tap room, another terrible idea.

Grant:
Yes, that’s a no for me.

Toby:
Yeah. Well, as we talk about this, I want to encourage the listeners out there. If you’re doing something really cool, really unique at the tap room, or just doing something unique at your facility in general… I know we’ve mentioned some breweries out there that are actually unique in the way that there’s no tipping aloud, right? So, just really cool.

Toby:
If you’re doing something unique that you think we’d love to hear about it as well, hit us up at the BrewDeck at countrymalt.com. We’re hoping this kind of parlays into another episode, so if you’re doing something cool, let us know. We’d love to hear about it and potentially have you on.

Toby:
Let’s start first with a survey we sent out. Heather?

Heather:
Yeah. Well, thanks to everybody that did the poll on Instagram. Basically, we asked, what was the most important thing for a good tap room to people, and what was the least important thing? And coming in super high at 72%, the most important thing is location and atmosphere for people, and I think I can speak to that as well. Honestly, there’s so many breweries around my house. Those are the breweries I’m at all the time.

Toby:
Are you looking for kind of like walking distance?

Heather:
Yeah. Yeah. Stumbling distance, walking distance.

Toby:
Like riding your bike, yeah.

Heather:
Riding my bike distance.

Toby:
Man, I had a guy… Off topic. I had a guy that went to college with that got two tickets for riding back home after a late night on his bicycle. I guess, he wasn’t controlling his bicycle very well.

Grant:
Yeah.

Heather:
That is so-

Toby:
That’s legit. You can get full-

Heather:
It’s still a vehicle. Yeah.

Toby:
That’s true.

Heather:
Being drunk on a bike.

Toby:
Yeah. So, Heather, what are some of your go-to options close to where you are?

Heather:
Close to home, definitely, 33 Acres. It’s about a 12-minute walk. Walk downhill to the brewery, and then uphill which is a bit of a punishment on the way home. But yeah, I definitely spent a lot of time there. It’s probably one of my favorites. Some other ones, Parallel 49, Superflux. Yeah. I honestly chose very well when I chose my place. There’s a lot of breweries in the walking distance of my apartment.

Toby:
Yeah. Well, the other thing, you talk location being key and we’re dealing with it right now, down south. Well, a lot of areas in southern part of US. But it’s hot, so you got to have AC. So, I think one thing that is obviously important for a good tap room, if it’s constantly a hundred degrees plus, you got to have AC. Right, Grant?

Grant:
Oh, yeah. For sure. That’s definitely something I factor in, in the summer right now. If they don’t have AC right now, I’m much less likely to go there, for sure.

Toby:
Cheyenne, was it you telling me that air conditioner up in your neck of the woods was hit or miss?

Cheyenne:
Yeah, definitely. Up here, in the Northwest, it’s kind of hit or miss. I mean, especially in homes in general, not a lot of people have central air, so if businesses have any sort of AC, then it’s a huge plus for us in the summertime, because we don’t know how to deal with any weather that’s hotter than 75 degrees. So, yeah, there’s a good brewery that’s got AC, I’m there, cold beer, cold air.

Toby:
Yeah.

Heather:
That’s a win-win.

Cheyenne:
Yeah.

Toby:
Well, obviously, if your locale is somewhere in an area where there’s a lot of vacationing going on, it seems like you got an upper hand there, but it’s probably seasonal as well. I’ve seen some really, really popular breweries that are off the beaten path, like up in warehouse districts that have no frontage, whatsoever, or destination breweries for that matter that just kill it.

Toby:
So, I’m fully on board with people’s thoughts on location support is important, but I think if you’re making great beer and word gets around, people will drive and find out where you are.

Cheyenne:
Definitely. Yeah.

Heather:
I agree with that.

Toby:
What are some of those that you all can think offhand? Like this is one of those where you’ll drive two hours to go sit down and have a few beers at their tap room. Anything come to mind?

Cheyenne:
For me, I think that Bale Breaker over in Yakima does a fantastic job with their tap room and they’re… I live in central Washington, so I’m about an hour away from them, but they’re about two hours away from Seattle and people still love to make the drive to go see them. And they’ve got such a cool atmosphere and they have their own hop farms, so you get to kind of see the hops getting grown right next to the tap room and the beer patio.

Cheyenne:
But yeah, they’ve got a fabulous indoor tap room and they’ve got this really big beer garden, you can play games and the kids can run around, and they have food trucks and all that stuff. It’s just a cool location and really cool to get to see the beer ingredients tied into the tap room.

Toby:
Yeah, for sure. So, that was the leader of the pack. Heather, what was the… So, location was kind of the number one, what was number two?

Heather:
Yeah. Food options. And honestly, it was only 19%. Honestly, location and atmosphere came in so far above everything else, but food options be coming in second.

Toby:
It’s interesting. More than 10 years ago, I think the breweries are really looking at, not only making fantastic beer, but also utilizing food as an opportunity to showcase their beers, right? And we’ve talked about it before, Heather. You specifically being Cicerone, we’ve had episodes where we’ve talked food and beer pairing.

Toby:
But I think breweries these days are really concentrating on, number one, if they have a kitchen putting out some very interesting stuff. And then, two, just having some options for people to munch on. I think it allows people to sit around, and enjoy themselves, and have another pine or two than they would have if they didn’t have food available.

Heather:
Absolutely. I think people will definitely stay there longer. I know I’ll stay there longer if there’s a food option. And a lot of the times, in the afternoon, I’ll be like, “I want a little snack, let’s wander to a brewery that I know that has a charcuterie or has pizza.” Or like I was talking about, Superflux, they have gourmet hotdogs, which are so ridiculously good.

Toby:
Awesome.

Heather:
And just that perfect little afternoon treat. So, definitely, places I will gravitate towards.

Toby:
Yeah, that’s great. What other some places you all would point out that just has really unique food offerings?

Grant:
Oh, yeah.

Toby:
Heather, you mentioned it. What about you, Grant?

Grant:
Yeah. Yeah. So, I’m down here in Houston. I’m biased, of course, my old alma mater, but the beer garden at Saint Arnold is massive, they did a huge expansion in the past couple of years, and their menu is just always going. They have an in-house kitchen and they make this Nashville style, hot chicken sandwich that’s like that compared with that, with like a Pilsner, like another light beer, and you can actually order the half liter dimple mugs like you’re in Munich or something. I love that. They have huge fans, they have AC as well. It’s just a great destination here in Houston for craft beer.

Toby:
I’ll second that. Cheyenne, I know there’s always fantastic food coming out of the Pacific Northwest, what about you?

Cheyenne:
Yeah, definitely. I think, for me, what I really enjoy are tap rooms who have rotating food trucks, that’s something that’s super exciting for me. I love having the variety. We have a tap room near where I live called Volition Brewing, and they don’t have a kitchen, but they have a food truck there pretty much every single day, and they rotate out. They have dozens that come through, so it’s kind of like a luck of the draw every single time you go, and it’s always super good. You never know what you’re getting, and you show up, and there’s a really cool food truck. So, I like that option a lot.

Toby:
Yeah, a very good point. Very good point. Well, cool. So, yeah, food option. What’s the next one, Heather?

Heather:
If it’s kid friendlier, it’s dog friendly, which just leads back to a bunch of our conversations. I mean, for me, I do often choose a brewery that at least allows me to have my dog on the patio, because I like to take my dog out drinking with me, I guess.

Toby:
Right. I’m not going to judge here, Heather, but what would you feel like if you were to go to a brewery that was like Chuck E. Cheese? You all have Chuck E. Cheese up there?

Heather:
We do have Chuck E. Cheese up here.

Toby:
Yeah. Like you have to go brewery and it was like complete Chuck E. Cheese action with kids running around, causing a ruckus. Would that ruin your time there? Are you good with…

Heather:
Just some extent, it might. It kind of depends. Honestly, I’m also… Again, I don’t have children, we’ve discussed this, but I do believe you should be able to go out and have a beer with your kids and enjoy your afternoon. And I fully am fine with children being around. I mean, I don’t want to play full…

Toby:
[inaudible 00:12:30] do not serve beer.

Heather:
Oh, Chuck E. Cheese does serve beer up here. It has licensed up here.

Toby:
The other thing too is, I think dog friendly is another big one that’s come along over the last 10… I mean, people are carrying their dogs around the backpacks and it’s… They’re more and more part of the family, so I think that’s a big key too.

Heather:
My dog’s been to more breweries than most people have.

Grant:
That’s awesome.

Heather:
He’s been everywhere.

Toby:
Nothing better than those that allow dogs that have the water bowls out for him, and provide treats, and stuff like that. Very cool.

Grant:
Absolutely. Shout out to Equal Parts down here in Houston, very dog-friendly, great beers, quiet. I mean, that’s a good dog place because I feel like… In my opinion, you kind of want to do one or the other. If you’re going to have kids running around everywhere, if you have kids and dogs, then it’s just like barking, it’s just too much. But yeah, Equal Parts is a great spot for dogs, a little quieter, and then kids… [inaudible 00:13:36] for kids and…

Grant:
Here in Texas, shout out to Family Beer Business in Austin. They do great job for kids, the playground, like I mentioned earlier. And Meanwhile Brewing as well in Austin. So, lots of kid-friendly beer options or brewery options.

Heather:
Beer options.

Grant:
Beer options.

Cheyenne:
I think that more and more breweries are starting to realize that kid-friendly is the way to go. Parents want an option. I don’t have kids either, but parents want an option to be able to go have a beer or two on a Sunday afternoon and let their kids play, and I think that breweries definitely are leaning into that.

Heather:
Well, I think that age group too, that is… Having kids is kind of the age group that really came up with craft beer.

Cheyenne:
Definitely.

Heather:
So, now-

Toby:
That’s a great point.

Heather:
Yeah. All those people are having kids and still want to be able to go to a tap room on a Sunday afternoon and bring their kids, and I’m fully support that.

Toby:
The last one surprising to me, if… Out of the four granted… I mean, these are just four options, there’s a lot more, but events and activities/entertainment, that was kind of like on the bottom of the list?

Heather:
Yeah, it was only a 3%.

Toby:
Interesting. I mean, what are your thoughts on that?

Heather:
I think, for me, honestly, I probably don’t often go to a brewery for an actual… If it’s an event like an anniversary party or like an actual brewery event, absolutely. But on the entertainment aspect of it, that’s not usually what I’ll gravitate towards a brewery for. I usually end there for the beer, so I don’t think it’s necessarily the biggest selling point for me.

Toby:
Yeah.

Heather:
Unless it’s like a dog show…

Cheyenne:
A dog show.

Heather:
Then, I’m there.

Toby:
Yeah. And I’ve been to breweries that have live music, and it’s cool. It’s great to sit and watch some live music. Yeah. I don’t know. What other activities or entertainment have you seen out visiting breweries?

Cheyenne:
I think that trivia nights are gaining popularity. I agree with Heather that I typically won’t go to a brewery solely for any sort of event or activity. I typically will find myself at breweries and there’s cool life music or fun events happening.

Cheyenne:
But I think that, yeah, trivia nights, fun things like that where people can kind of get their family or their team or all their friends, and come together, and hang out and drink beer, and kind of play games. I’ve seen that rising in popularity and I’ve definitely gone to a trivia night or two on my own, and it’s super fun.

Heather:
Yeah.

Grant:
I’ve got one. Speaking of activities, they don’t always get me there, just general activities, right? Pretty much everywhere has bar games and stuff these days, that’s pretty well thought out.

Grant:
But Live Oak Brewing in Austin, they have like an 18-hole disc golf course behind their brewery. And I know Prairie Artisan Ales or Chok Beer up in Oklahoma has the same thing these days, and it’s awesome. Like get a giant, half liter beer in your hand, go play disc golf with your buds on a nice day. It’s just, that is an activity that would bring me by breweries to do that. But obviously, it requires some land, so some of them are a little more blessed than others that way.

Toby:
Like benefits, another one.

Grant:
Oh, yeah.

Toby:
Some short par golf.

Grant:
That’s pretty fun too.

Toby:
For me, personally, I think the biggest thing walking into a tap room… And I’m wanting to enjoy myself. For me, it’s really walking in and be able to listen to the options on hand, and having some knowledgeable staff that can walk me through what beers they have on tap, right?

Heather:
Absolutely.

Toby:
I want to hear what they like, and why they like it, and what makes it unique. And I think one of the things we’ll hear about today when we talk to some folks is that, there’s a lot of emphasis put on that specifically these days, right? Give your staff and the people that are in your tap room all the ammo they need to go out and be successful, and one of those is training.

Heather:
Yeah. I think staff education is a really huge thing. And I think that everybody… I think we definitely talk about it. Everybody has horror stories of going into a tap room and having the person behind the bar or the server, just not being able to tell you anything about the beer.

Grant:
Absolutely.

Heather:
And it doesn’t really lead to that good atmosphere in a brewery, it’s all about that experience.

Toby:
Well, some of the guest suggestions or suggestions we’ve heard just right off the top… And we’ve mentioned a couple of them already, but… Meanwhile, Optimism Brewing, Templin Family, Manhattan Project Beer, Cold Garden Beverage Company, Alvarado Streets, Switchback, ABGB, Austin Beer Garden, Bond’s Brewing, Russian River, another one too. They got people standing around the block with releases.

Grant:
That’s crazy.

Heather:
Yeah.

Toby:
Sierra Nevada, obviously, always fun. Mills River. We mentioned Bale Breaker in P49, so… But yeah, no, excited about this episode. I think, we’ll dive right in. But before we do, I do want to mention the last episode and just encourage people to listen if you haven’t. It was a whole episode spent on the Veterans Blend. We had Bri Vaughn from YCH and Chelsey Simoni from HunterSeven, talking about the Veterans Blend and what it looked like this year.

Toby:
And by the way, it is on pre-order. So, twofold. Go listen to that episode if you haven’t already. And secondly, give CMG a call, give your representative a call. Or if you don’t know who that is, just visit our website. We’d love to help you out and get some of this in your hands.

Toby:
I’d say, without further ado, let’s get right into it. Well, it’s good to have the next folks on with us. It’s a really cool topic we’ve been talking about today, specifically kind of overarching the tap room experience. And in preparing for this show, Heather actually dug up some information, really, around education and the importance of staff training and knowledge on these folks. So, Heather, tell us a little bit about what you find and why you reached out to this group.

Heather:
Well, I kind of went… I, like you said, dig it around to see actual education that you can do for your tap room staff. I think we all have stories and somewhat horror stories of asking questions about a beer at a tap room, and getting a completely made up wrong response or something along those lines.

Heather:
An as we’ve talked about on the show before, I am a certified Cicerone, that’s my education that I’ve been working through. And yes, Proof came up in an article talking about using the Cicerone program to educate their tap room staff, so that’s why I reached out and super excited that they agreed to be on today.

Toby:
Yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah. I ain’t going back to what you mentioned. I unfortunately have been into a tap room where I’ve asked for a suggestion and I’ve got referred to the menu. Wow, there’s the menu right there.

Heather:
Yeah.

Toby:
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for the insight. Yeah.

Heather:
And I think if you ask any brewer, that’s the last thing that they want to happen.

Toby:
My response was, “I’ll take one from the brewery down the road.”

Grant:
Cool.

Toby:
Well, no, excited to have both David and Aaron from Proof Brewing out in Tallahassee, Florida on. David is the production manager, and then Aaron is the head brewer over there. So, Hey, welcome guys.

David:
Hey, thanks for having us.

Aaron:
Thanks for having us.

Toby:
Yeah. Cool. So, tell us a little bit about yourselves, what your roles are over at the brewery, and what were you doing now, and what’s going on over there?

David:
Yeah. So, we’ve both been here a pretty long time. I think Aaron’s been here now’s almost 12 years, Aaron?

Aaron:
Yep.

David:
And I’m hitting 10 years in a couple of weeks. We both kind of grew up with this company. The company started actually as a bottle shop back in the day with a heavy emphasis on craft beer. About a year into running the bottle shop, we added a bar that was a craft beer focused bar. And then, I think it was about five years in, we put a brewery in the basement of our original location. And since then, we’ve moved to one production facility, then outgrew that, and we’re now at our third location.

David:
So, yeah, we’ve both been here really long time. Aaron started right before the brewing really got up and running, and I came in right as everything was getting set up, so we’ve really grown with the company. It’s been a really awesome thing over the last 10 years to see everything grow.

Toby:
Now, did you all recently… I say, recently. Everything’s time is so weird with COVID, but did you all recently just opened a new tap room?

Aaron:
Yeah. In a whole new facility that we moved over to, and we were kind of in a time crunch and had to move into this new building, but it actually was kind of a blessing in disguise. The facility was awesome. It was all actually an old Coca-Cola bottling plant back in the day. And nothing really set up wise for us to do scale production or anything like that, but the facility was perfect to renovate for brewing operations, tap room and future expansion space, offices, everything, the way we kind of formatted everything and fit everything in. And it’s turned out to be a great space for us to have ourselves with.

Toby:
Yeah, that’s great. And as mentioned, we’ve had several folks mention the tap room experiences, and specifically what’s coming out from you guys at Proof Brewing, so it’s a… I’ve seen pictures, unfortunately, haven’t been able to make it up, but I have it on my list here.

Toby:
One of the things that stood out and as Heather mentioned is, you all have an extensive training program/offering for not only your tap room staff, but just your general staff there at the brewery, right? And I think it’s something that both breweries, and actually, the customer base as well, I think, is very helpful. And I think for the listeners out there wanting to learn a little bit more about how they can do that and other breweries that kind of integrate training programs for their staff would love to hear about it. So, why’d you all decide to do this, and why do you think the training side of things is important for your staff?

David:
Having a knowledgeable staff is, I mean, you have to have that this day and age. We always look at… The thing that we are trying to create, whether you’re drinking beer that you bought at the store, whether you’re coming into the tap room, is a great customer experience. And the way we create that great customer experience is by having staff that can walk people through, that can really help navigate people through the… We have 20 plus taps on at any given time, we do also wine and liquor, so there’s a lot of offerings.

David:
And so, people come in, they might be intimidated by all the beer on there, that might be their first time. We’re in a college town, so we get a lot of people who this is their first time in a brewery. So, having staff that knows how to talk to people, knows how to communicate about beer, knows the history of beer, the brewing process, things like that, that’s really, really important to that customer experience.

Toby:
And do you think that… Yeah, you’re going back to some newcomers to the craft industry, if you will, and do you think it’s really important to have some knowledge of what style they’re into, what they’re looking for, what their tastes are? Because I think a lot of times, that first beer you serve to them might make or break them as a future customer and in craft in general, right?

David:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. We train our staff that, if someone’s coming in and they don’t have any experience with craft beer or it’s super limited, you got to kind of feel it out, what do you like to drink? What type of food are you into? Things like that can kind of cue you off on that like, “All right. If you really like fruit, then maybe a fruited blond ale might be up your alley. If you like more aggressive stuff, maybe try a pale ale. If you like coffee…” If we have stouts on, I always ask people, “Hey, do you like coffee?” And they go, “Yeah, I like coffee.” And I go, “Well, you should really have a stout.” That’s actually how I got my mom into beer, because she was never a beer drinker, but she was always a coffee drinker.

David:
And I remember the first time I went out and we went to a bar right after I turned 21 and I was like, “Hey, you got to come out to the craft beer bar.” And she’s like, “I don’t drink beer.” I said, “No, I’m going to find something you like on the menu.” And I said, “You’ve got to try a stout because I know you like coffee, and that roast flavor is going to translate really well.”

David:
So, having staff that can navigate people through that, but also answer more technical questions because we get a lot of people that come in and want to know about the more technical side of the brewing or special processes and things like that we’ve done with beer.

Toby:
Yeah, that’s great. Before we go into the Cicerone part and what you all do with the staff there, but you mentioned, customers wanting to come in and get a better understanding of the process of brewing the beer that they’re drinking. Aaron, is that something that you’re involved in on tours, or do you have staff that handle it, and what kind of training or expectation do you have for the staff that leads those?

Aaron:
Yeah. They know, unfortunately, tours have kind of halted as of recently and just still, being COVID. But yeah, before that, it was very involved and we tried to do at least every Friday to try to do a EA tour, but unfortunately, we’re not able to get around that. But yeah, we were trying to build up the staff, but me and David and a few other people were leading those at the time and walking them through every part of it to make sure they understand what goes into it, water quality and everything.

Aaron:
We take water quality very strict here and run it through reverse osmosis, and among those things and talking about how we filter and the different processes there. So, yeah, we definitely run them through that, all the staff do know and understand that process as well. Yeah.

Toby:
Yeah. I think it’s great. I think it’s super important. I’m glad that you all are doing that.

Toby:
So, nothing better to have somebody that can explain to you from grain to glass, or at least give a really good overview, so that whoever’s enjoying that beer can get a good feel of what it took and the time and energy it took for them to enjoy it there at the bar. So, that’s cool.

Toby:
Yeah. So, Heather mentioned her involvement in the Cicerone, the beer program. And there’s several levels of completion, if you will.I took it a while back and I think I failed the original one, so it’s not easy. And it’s a pretty rigorous test and Heather’s actually been on a couple of podcasts with us and we talked about food and beer pairing. But interested to know, how you chose the Cicerone? Is it the beer server program that you guys expect or do you pay for it? How do you promote that for your staff?

David:
Yeah. Basically, when we bring someone on, we want them to start learning from day one, so I generated a packet a while back that’s like, I don’t know, maybe six or seven pages that kind of walk through the company history and a little bit about beer, super, super surface level stuff. They get that on day one.

David:
And then, we’ll also let them know about getting beer server certified. Anyone that touches beer has to have their Cicerone Beer Server certification. One of the ways that our company runs is, we typically promote from within, so people might start working the door, barbacking, things like that. And if they want to work up to bartender or become a bartender, or even if we’re doing a direct higher end, they have to pass and get that before they’re allowed to touch beer.

David:
We were there. We were open basically when the Cicerone program kind of got up and running, and we just looked at the syllabus and we said, “This is such a great start to the education. It’s a great way for people that are not sure what they should be focusing on, or if they have gaps in their own knowledge.” It’s like, if you can get through the Certified Beer Server, you should be able to be competent behind the bar. But I will say this, that for us, that beer service certification is just the start of the education. There’s a lot of continuing education that we do in house. We do off-flavor training, which is always really fun to get everyone in and taste butyric acids spiked the beer, stuff like that.

Heather:
Everybody loves those diacetyl off-flavors.

David:
Oh, yeah, diacetyl. All that fun stuff.

Toby:
Yeah. I remember Tanner throwing that. One of those out at me, Heather, on a trip. He did… One of our old sales guys, Tanner Davis, shout out to him.

Toby:
Anyways, he did the off-flavors, the formal training thing and there was… I don’t remember which one it was, but I had to leave the room. I had the dry heave going on. It ruined it for the night.

Heather:
I guarantee, it’s diacetyl. And that is something that, I swear to God, I could smell it from across the bar. It’s just one of those things that I’m like, “Oh, God, no. Oh, God, no.”

David:
Works on popcorn.

Toby:
Yeah. No, sorry to cut you off, David. I think it’s super important as well. That way, if they’re around the beer they’re serving every day, at all moments, they can have the opportunity to point out a flaw or something, and then report back to you guys, right?

David:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that I work with the bar staff on is, if you’re pouring beer behind the bar, if there’s ever an issue, if you ever suspect there’s an issue, you have the authority to say, “I’m not serving this beer. Let me figure it out.” Tell the customer, “Hey, let me check. I got to go change the keg or whatever it is.” If there’s ever an issue, the bartender is the last line of defense for bad beer. We can have the greatest ingredients and the best brew day, the best fermentation, it can pass all the labs, go into a keg. And then, some issue with the tap line or a keg or something like that happens. And if they serve that beer, then all that hard work is for nothing because that customer is going to have a really awful experience. So, it’s so important.

David:
As the brew team, we’re here during the day. We don’t have a lot of customer interaction. It’s really important that the bartenders have that knowledge, that they can communicate with us and say, “Hey, I tasted this beer, and I think maybe there’s a little oxidation.” or “This beer tastes a little old or…” Anything like that. Or, “Hey, the carbonation, the mouth feels not quite right on this keg.” And you go, “Oh, there’s a leak in the seal on the keg.” So, it’s really important for them to have that knowledge, and then have the vocabulary. And also, the relationship with the brew staff to be able to bring that up and feel comfortable in that position.

Toby:
Yeah, that’s a great point. So, with all the stuff that you all have in place there, which is all fantastic stuff, when it trickles down to customers, have you seen an increase or heard feedback from customers, whether it’s reviews or just people giving you all a shout out like, “Thanks, you guys are awesome.” Have you seen an increase in some of that feedback from the customer base since you all have implemented some of these training programs?

David:
Even before we started with the company, there was some level of beer knowledge training, it’s just kind of grown over the years. It’s kind of hard to quantify, but the fact is, we get a lot of people that are repeat customers. Someone will come in and ask for a specific bartender because they have a great rapport with that bartender and things like that.

David:
Anecdotally, I think it does help. And at this day and age too, 10 years ago, there weren’t a lot of breweries around, and so if you wanted craft beer, especially locally craft beer, there was a little brew pub, and then we were the first kind of production brewery in Tallahassee. I think, now, we have five breweries in the city, plus there’s 13 within 50 miles of the city, so you really have to be on your game. You have to have that knowledgeable staff, that great experience to keep people coming back in because if not, they’re going to go somewhere else.

Heather:
Yeah, absolutely. Toby said at the beginning, “Just go right down the street.” Well, do you think it’s actually helped you retain your staff as well? Do you think implementing this kind of training has created, that was an environment for these people that know that they can move up in the company and do that sort of thing? Do you think it’s kind of helped you retain some of this really good staff?

David:
I think so. I think it also has helped… We’ve had some people that were started on front of house, and because of the beer education, they got really into the process and have actually moved into the production side, which has been really, really cool. And giving people a tool, a knowledgeable bartender is going to be successful and make money behind the bar. And if they’re happy, the customers are happy, they’re going to stay in that position a lot longer. If you go in, have a bad experience, the bartender is not going to have a good night, and then they might look for something else.

Heather:
Yeah, for sure.

Toby:
Outside of educating, training staff, which I think everybody should be doing, it sounds like you guys are doing a great job of it. What else do you all think is the key to just an ultimate kick tap room and experience? Is there one thing that stands out, Aaron?

Aaron:
No. I mean, an inviting atmosphere. And again, remembering my time going in and get one of my first beers, it can be a little bit intimidating if you don’t know everything about it, going through a list, and there’s 12 IPAs, and you’re trying to figure out which one’s different. And having, again, a bartender that’s not going to be intimidating, be not at all demeaning at all like, “Hey, you don’t know why this hop is great or something like that?” It’s just inviting, “Hey, you should try this one. It’s delicious.” If they’re not that educated. But if they are, you give them more information that they are looking for to trying to find out if you’re getting into IBUs or anything like that.

Aaron:
We were talking about the hazy IPAs, that’s a big, newer thing to where describing it as, it’s very hoppy, but not bitter. And that the difference in that nomenclature in the past, people always just disliking IPAs where a lot of people actually do enjoy hazes because they’re not this bitter.

Toby:
Yeah, I think you’re right. It comes back to also just patience, right? I mean, some of the very, very knowledgeable people that know the ins and outs of beer, and how it’s made, and all that kind of stuff, you might have a customer that is, again, is a first timer at craft beer. And just having some patience to be willing to walk and walk them through the process, and talk to them about craft beer, I think, is very inviting, and it would certainly have me back.

David:
One thing that I think is really important for us is that, no matter who you are, if you’re 21 or up, we want you to come in and try beer and enjoy that experience. And we want to feel really open and accepting.

David:
The audience can’t see me, but when I walk into a brewery, everyone’s like, “All right. This guy knows.” They just take a look at me and they’re like, “This guy knows what he’s doing, ordering a beer.” I’ve been out with my girlfriend before and we’ve had some pretty awful experiences at tap rooms or bars where I would get served and I could order whatever I want, and she would order an IPA and they’d go, “You know that’s an IPA. You know that’s bitter, right?” And things like that. And so…

Heather:
Oh, trust me, I know.

David:
Yeah. So, if we’re going to really try to bring more people into the craft beer scene and grow the industry, and make it more inclusive, you have to have staff that can, again, that can talk to someone who’s in the industry, and also talk to a complete novice in a way that’s not condescending where you have that knowledge, but you’re presenting it in a fun and an engaging way and really building that. I mean, that’s one of the things we do here is that… It’s not just about beer knowledge, it’s about people’s skills, it’s about dealing with…

David:
If someone’s rude… 99% of customers are great, but you get that one person who’s just not… How do you handle that behind the bar and things like that? So, there’s a lot of people skills that go into our training. And one of the things that we look for when we’re hiring is, we really want someone… We can teach you about beer. I can’t teach you to be a nice, kind person, that’s just not something that’s teachable, so I’d rather bring someone on who has great people skills, and I’ll teach you what you need to know about beer, than someone who knows a bunch about beer but is not going to have those people skills.

Heather:
And we’ve said it on here many, many time, but beer is for everyone, so…

David:
Yes.

Heather:
Creating those good, comfortable spaces for everybody is really important.

Toby:
Yeah. Well, from what I’ve seen, you all have the optimal tap room, and obviously, what you’re doing with the staff is great. But is anybody, locally there, friends of the industry, other breweries that you guys like to hang out at, they have a great tap room or great staff? A place that you can mention that is also up there in the caliber?

David:
Absolutely. Our friends over at Ology Brewing just opened a new location on the north side, it’s real beautiful, and they’re also serving 3.7% Lager, which all the industry guys love.

Toby:
Nice.

David:
Our friends over at DEEP do a great job. They got a little spot, but super great staff, and you actually get to basically sit right in the brewery when you’re drinking a beer, which is really cool.

David:
Yeah. The whole scene here is just growing and growing, and it’s such an awesome thing to see, especially this part of Florida. I think a lot of people are familiar with the Tampa Bay area, which is just exploded with craft beer over the last decade, like a hundred breweries down there. But we have a lot of really cool stuff happening up here in north Florida. If anyone’s over in a Lake City, Halpatter Brewing has a really cool spot in an old building downtown that’s just really, really interesting to see.

Toby:
Nice. Aaron, anything interesting you got on tap or you brew anything upcoming that you want to plug?

Aaron:
No, nothing too crazy. I’m playing around with Nelson [inaudible 00:41:32] pills, kind of a New Zealand pills. I’m really excited about getting that on, just kind of brew that the other day. But just trying out to getting some new hops and hazes, and getting ramping up for the winter here, and hopefully get some stouts back onto that, get some stuff out of the barrels and… Yeah.

Toby:
Cool. Well, hey, David Kant-Rauch, Aaron Brown, I appreciate you all coming on over at Proof Brewing.

Toby:
For the listeners, if you’re out in that area, go visit them, say hello for us. And I really appreciate the insights and chatting with us about the overall tap room experience, specifically around education for the staff. It sounds like you guys are doing it right. I really appreciate your time in joining us today, and I look forward to coming out and taking a visit.

David:
Thank you so much for having us.

Grant:
Our guest today is Karl Sanford, he’s the president of Manhattan Project. They are a wonderful brewery in Dallas, Texas, kind of in this neighborhood of Oak Cliff, and I’m really stoked to have him on the show today to talk about their tap room. It really stands out in my mind. I love the way they designed it. How’s it going, Karl?

Karl:
It’s going well, how are you?

Grant:
I’m doing well.

Karl:
Thanks for having me on today. Thanks for thinking of us.

Grant:
Yeah. Yeah, man. It’s really neat. I got to see this whole build out over the years. I’ve known Jeremy for years now, so it was really neat to… I’m watching everything start up and just all of you all’s like goals come to fruition over the years, and now you all are just cranking out great beer.

Karl:
Oh, well, thank you. Yeah. It was kind of a slow start, just doing altern proprietorship and finally getting our own place was great. Having those, that kind of head start where we could take our time putting our own location together, I feel like it was a big advantage. We didn’t have to really rush through things and we had a little bit more budget to work with.

Grant:
Absolutely. Well, for the listeners out there, let’s just jump in kind of like, what was your, I guess, design choices or philosophy that Manhattan Project had going when they did their tap room build out? I mean, it’s got a couple of things, I would say, are pretty cutting edge for Texas market, at least, something I don’t really see all over the country.

Karl:
Well, yeah. There’s inspiration from traveling to West Coast, traveling to Europe, and just kind of seeing that it… Historically, in Texas, the tap room wasn’t allowed, so you could do a brewery tour, and then you could get free beer with that tour, so there wasn’t really a motivation to have a dedicated bar type space. Saturdays, we do our $10 tours, you get your wooden nickles. And so, we kind of came after that era where we were really focused on a purpose built space.

Karl:
And one thing that’s bothered me, I’ve gone to breweries that have amazing beer and just world famous places. And then, you go to their tap room and the food is subpar and the design is subpar. When I say subpar, I mean, compared to their beer, and it’s just… I’m like, “The beer deserves better, right?” Yeah. So, that was definitely one of our motivations was, we wanted food that supported the beer, but also didn’t steal the show. So, we didn’t want to make it a fine dining establishment, we want to make it casual. So, it’s fried chicken, which is casual, but it’s Thai fried chicken, which is refined and it’s…

Karl:
So, trying to balance those two things was really what we were trying to do. And same thing with the decor of the space where we wanted… We feel that our beer is high quality and our beer is refined and clean, and we wanted that same feel and that same experience for anyone who came to the tap room to try the product.

Grant:
Yeah. It’s kind of got this… I would describe it as kind of this like organic feeling, almost coffee shop sort of vibe?

Karl:
Oh, yeah. I definitely can see the coffee shop aspect. My wife and I did all the design work. I do more of the, if you will, architectural layout and she does the interior design stuff. And we’re both big fans of mid-century, it’s just a great style of architecture.

Karl:
I’d say, we are heavily influenced just from our love of mid-century architecture. And then, once again, yeah, just keeping things clean and uncluttered. And anyone who’s seen our brand or knows our brand, it’s kind of black and white, it’s kind of just clean, minimalistic, and I feel like that is… So, we say like, we want the beer to mirror the brand, and then the brand to mirror the experience in the tap room. So, that was our approach.

Heather:
Oh, that’s just that… We talked about it earlier on. We did a poll on Instagram and one of the most important thing that people said for a tap room was the atmosphere, the location and the atmosphere, so it’s super, super important to people.

Karl:
Yeah. And one of the things that we did is, when you walk into our tap room, it is warehouse height ceilings, but we brought in a massive custom hop chandelier that sort of fills that space and kind of brings a scale down. And then, as you progress into the tap room, the ceilings drop down to… We’ll call it about 10 feet. So, it’s much more of like a human intimate scale, which is something that, once again, if you’re retrofitting a tap room into a brewery space, you’re probably going to have 20 foot ceilings, and that can just turn into a gymnasium really quickly and you get… So, that was definitely… We wanted it to feel like a cozy, comfortable space. So, everything from the ceiling scale, to the lighting, to acoustic treatment to just make it a more comfortable space.

Grant:
For sure. Which kind of brings me to my next point. It kind of blew my mind when I first heard about it, and now I see more and more breweries do it. And I kind of think it’s the wave of the future, frankly. But when Jeremy was opening up, he told me that you guys were wanting to set it up for remote office work, and people that work from home or they’re on the road all the time, and they need a place to open their laptop. Because of that, not just doing beer, but you’ll have a hell of an espresso machine. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Karl:
Oh, yeah. It’s a beautiful machine, it’s made by a company out of Italy called Rocket. During the design phases, which is interesting with a brewery because it’s a manufacturing facility, it’s an office space, and then the tap room is a restaurant. So, you don’t often get all of those things in the same place at the same time.

Karl:
Obviously, we started on the design work with going, “Okay. We need to be able to produce beer here, so let’s get that laid out.” And then, it’s kind of like, “Okay. This is a space that’s left over, how do we make that into the tap room/office/kitchen?” And so, it was kind of later in the design process where we said, “Okay. Well, this place is an office too. This is a place people come to work. We need things that offices have like, if you bring your lunch to work, where are you going to store it? If you want coffee in the morning, where’s the coffee machine going to be?”

Karl:
And at the same time, we’re sitting there building that or designing out this tap room, we’re like, “This is a beautiful space. It would be a shame to only have it open for a few hours a week. Why don’t we have it open all the time? And the coffee thing was really… I’m honestly motivated because I’ve worked in offices where they have the bun machine and someone finishes it off, but doesn’t turn the burner off, and then the coffee burnt, and then you have that burnt coffee smell that’s just baked into the walls, into the ceiling tiles. And I despise that, so I said, “We need to have these kind of amenities for our employees, why don’t we just open a coffee shop as well?”

Karl:
And we’d already planned on having food, so it’s like, “Well, if you’re going to have a kitchen, why only serve dinner? Let’s serve lunch and dinner.” Yeah. And then, once again, because it’s an office, we need high speed, reliable internet networking, so kind of just extend that to the tap room as well. So, one of my things I did in my past life was on the technology kind of networking side, so we have a little bit of an overkill Fiber+ redundant internet connection, and we have outlets everywhere and stuff like that.

Grant:
That’s great. Yeah. I’ve been there. I’ve had some beers before, even on a Saturday night. And I’m a coffee aficionado as well, so I’d like a double shop on, on the way out, right?

Karl:
Oh, yeah. Perfect.

Grant:
Go into other spots. I’m a feed that way, but it… Ah, man, I love that. I love having both in the same space, kind of a little pick me up shot.

Karl:
Yeah. I think the two go really well together. I mean, obviously, coffee is used as an ingredient in beer quite a bit and I feel like the two go really well together.

Grant:
Absolutely. So, you touched on the food pairing, but I want to go back to that and chat about that a little bit more. I love the elevated way that you guys treat it, where fried chicken is pretty accessible to everybody, right? But I want to say that, I’ll do like half chickens, you all bring it out on a nice white plate. It has presentation. It’s elevated exactly, like you said. Whose idea was that? Or how did you get the inspiration for Thai chicken? I know you all have some other stuff on the menu, but I would say, it’s Asian fusion for the most part, would you agree?

Karl:
World cuisine, if we were to give it a theme. World street food cuisine is kind of, I guess, what ties it all together. We had this idea for this Thai chicken. We had a friend that was working on opening a Thai fried chicken concept, and so he sort of… We originally were going to partner with him and that ended up not working out. And so, just to do some contractual stuff that we couldn’t get through, so we said, “Well, we really like this idea of the Thai fried chicken.” So, we came up with our own recipe. And at the same time, Jeremy said, “Hey, when I go to brewery, I want the really good Belgian frites, right? French fries that are just top notch.”

Karl:
So, our chef, that was there at the time, we said, “Hey, just come up with some recipes for fries. Whatever. Make the best fry you can make.” So, he chopped them up, and he boiled them in salt water, and he chilled them, and then fried them, and we fried them in beef tallow because that’s like the best oil to use. And then, I think he put some time infused, clarified butter on top, and then homemade aioli. And we tried it and we’re like, “Well, these are great.” And he’s like, “Well, good, because there’s absolutely no way to improve that french fry.”

Karl:
So, now, we’re sitting there looking at them, we’re like, “Okay. We have Thai chicken and Belgian frites. How do we connect these two? And they’re both casual foods. And then, at the same time, we had recently been introduced to arepas, which is a south American, mostly Venezuelan, also Columbian, where it’s essentially… It looks like an English muffin, but it’s made out of a corn meal. And then, at this point, we were like, “Hey man, this whole kitchen is gluten-free, that’s pretty interesting approach as well.” So, we kind of launch with that. We’ve since added a hamburger, which has just a regular bun, because gluten-free bread should never happen, but…

Grant:
It’s got good structure.

Karl:
Yeah. And I feel like we have the hamburger that represents America, we’ve got the arepa, which is south America, we’ve got Europe, we’ve got Asia. So, it’s just an eclectic… We wanted to have some variety on there but we have a really small kitchen, so we couldn’t do a huge menu. So, we said, “Okay. How do we just kind of get a little variety, and maybe just pull from different cuisines across the globe?”

Grant:
Absolutely. What I really like about it is, your menu isn’t massive. Obviously, you don’t want that because it’s just hard to juggle that with a tap room. But each of the items that you have, I guess, it’s more world tour than Asian fusion, like you were saying, but each one is just so well put together, it pairs great with the beer. I think you all list the beer pairings on your menu, but definitely, curated, as much as you guys’ beer, which it’s impressive.

Karl:
Yeah. One thing that we talk about is that, at the end of the day, we own this business and we don’t have to serve anything bad, right? And I feel like, anyone who’s into beer will know that they go to some nice restaurant that has $400 bottles of wine, and $50 entrées, and then they ask for a beer list, and they get quoted, “Oh, we got Bud Light, Miller Lite, Amstel, Shiner Bock.” And you realize like, “Those don’t match. Those don’t match anything else about your business, right?

Karl:
Your wine is better than that. Your atmosphere is better. Your service is better. Your food is better. And then, you’ve just chosen to… It’s like, you don’t have to serve Bud Light, right? You don’t have to. It’s your business, you make that decision. And so, that’s kind of the approach that we’ve taken is, with the exception of having a few Cokes, Dr Peppers, Sprites hidden in the back for the kids that come in. We don’t let stuff in the door if it’s not something we want our customers to experience.

Grant:
Absolutely. Yeah. To your point about going to a restaurant that has $400 bottles of wine and having bad beer, I noticed the exact same thing with coffee. I’m sworn off, like if I go to a nice restaurant and I can see like they have a nice espresso machine… I’ve been burned too many times like-

Karl:
Oh, yeah.

Grant:
Sometimes, out of 10, the shot that comes out is just sour and bitter, and just like, “You guys have a La Marzocco and you’re handing me this terrible shot?” I think you guys just do a great job because like you were saying, every single thing is quality and you all made sure of that.

Karl:
Well, I will say that, the coffee is a lot harder than I anticipated. I studied up on it, talked to a lot of people, read about it and it was like, “Okay. Yeah, you got to get the right bean, you got to get the right grind, you got to dial in the machine, the temperature and the volumetric, flow rates and all this.” And it seemed like, “Okay. This is a very solvable thing.” And then, you get into it and… There’s a lot of skill involved in properly distributing the espresso in the basket, so that you don’t get channeling because as soon as you get channeling, you get both under extraction and over extraction. So, now, like you said, it’s sour and bitter and…

Grant:
It’s a lot like watering beer that way.

Karl:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It’s a lot more challenging than I thought it would be, so we’ve actually found it easier to hire people that have barista experience and teach them about beer, than it is to hire people that know beer and teach them how to make coffee. So, yeah, it’s not easy.

Grant:
Let people bring in their specialty is what it sounds like, kind of what they’re good at higher brewers and higher baristas and don’t have…

Karl:
Yeah.

Grant:
Makes sense. The other thing that I wanted to bring up on this podcast is, the way that you have your beer to go staged, some breweries… I go to a lot of breweries. They keep it in the back or whatever, but you guys have these just beautiful coolers that just kind of stare at you the whole time you’re hanging out there, and they’re always perfectly well stocked like the best grocery store ever. I mean, what was the reasoning behind that? Was it just…

Karl:
Well, I think this goes back to a lot of the… We didn’t really have to rush things because we were kind of just delayed doing a bunch of paperwork with the city and zoning and platting. And so, we had sort of, pretty much, finished the design, and then we’re still messing around with the city, so we were able to go back and just really tweak everything.

Karl:
And I started looking at when you’re at… Because it is very similar at a gas station where there’s a cold box behind the cooler, right? They typically stock those from the back, so you don’t have to come around from the front. And so, I started looking into like, “How do you do this? Who manufactures these doors? And how do they get installed?”

Karl:
And then, I start looking at it and it was like, “Well, it’s about the same price to install those set of doors in a cooler, as it is to buy a standalone refrigerator. And then, with that, you have the look of the standalone refrigerator, you have the extra maintenance if it breaks.” And so, we said, “Well, we already have a cooler here for the bar.” We can just essentially throw some doors on the end of it, put a rack behind it, and then have a much nicer built in presentation to the beer as opposed to, like you said, just keeping it in the back or putting it in a standard reach in type glass front commercial refrigerator. And then, once again, just one less thing to maintain and… Those refrigerators are noisy as well. So, yeah.

Grant:
Yeah. All just very well thought out about creating an atmosphere, not having some dusty fridge make a hum the whole time people are hanging out.

Karl:
Yeah. Yeah.

Grant:
It’s just all integrated. I think it works on me, but I’ll ask you like, how does that do for your beer to go sales?

Karl:
We do pretty well. We’re kind of in the 20% beer to go out of the total, and then we’re probably… Call it 60% beer on site, and then the rest is food and coffee, and maybe actually a little bit more… Our food sales have doubled in the past year and a half, so it’s really caught on, but… And I’ll kind of get sidetracked on that for a minute, that was really interesting.

Karl:
When we first opened, people came in on Saturday between lunch and dinner because that’s what you do, right? That’s the behavior. It’s like, “Well, we’re going to go to brewery. We’re going to go grab a bite to eat, then we’re going to go to brewery, and then we’re going to go have dinner.” Right? That’s just the pattern. And well, there’s COVID in there too, but it took a couple of years for people to understand like, “Oh, I can go for breakfast. I can go for lunch.”

Karl:
I had a friend of mine that was like… I asked him what he thought of our coffee, because he owns a coffee shop, and he was like, “Oh, I forgot you even had coffee.” Now, he comes in once a week and works from here in the morning to kind of get away from his businesses, get some privacy, if you will, or whatever, some distraction, free time. When people think brewery, they don’t think, “I can go have a hamburger on a Tuesday.” And I think that, that’s finally starting to get into people’s heads that, when they think of, “Where should I go have a lunch on a Tuesday?” They go, “Oh, we can go to Manhattan Project.” But it took a while to get there.

Grant:
Gotcha.

Karl:
Oh, I was going to say… Yeah. Another thing, interesting. We don’t do a lot of the real hype beers, that’s not… And nothing against them, it’s just not really our thing. I would say, our beer to-go is really more people in the neighborhood that need some beer for their fridge, or they’re in here anyway and they want to take some beer home with them. So, we have a very casual kind of beer to-go buyer. I mean, we do get a pop when we have a highly anticipated release, but… Our customers aren’t really the type that would be willing to stand in line for an hour to get the latest this or that, so…

Grant:
You’re describing me.

Karl:
It’s definitely a different buyer than a lot of places.

Grant:
Sure. Another thing. I guess, one last thing is, point of sale. If I’m remembering correctly, you all use the handheld ones, right? What is that? Toast? Is that what it’s called?

Karl:
Yeah, it’s Toast. Toast is a pretty nice solution because they can pretty much handle… Since we’re not fine dining, we’re not trying to course out appetizers or things like that, which I think Toast can even do that. But our needs, restaurant wise, are pretty basic and… Yeah. Toast has a much lower cost of entry to get into. And then, along with that, because… It’s really three functions. The point of sale is Toast, but then it also has an integrated time clock, so people clock in and clock out on Toast. And then, Toast has their own payroll service, so people clock in, clock out, managers review time sheets, approve them, and then you just hit the go button, and they get their direct deposit. So, there’s not exporting time sheets and importing time sheets, it’s a pretty nice integrated solution.

Karl:
I’ve heard good things about Square. The thing that sold us on Toast was the pre-authorization where we can swipe a credit card, we can hand it back, and then we don’t have to hold their credit cards. That was one thing that we just really wanted to avoid, especially when it gets crazy busy on a Saturday. A lot of people, when it’s busy, they’re like, “Ah, I’m just going to leave.” And I think that’s kind of become almost like-

Grant:
I’m one of them.

Karl:
They’re like, “Hey, they’re going to close it out. They’ll put 20%, 22%, which is what I would’ve tipped anyway, so heck with it.” I don’t feel like waiting in line for 15, 20 minutes just to say, “I want to close out.”

Grant:
Right. Yeah.

Heather:
Well, I’d like to know, what your favorite tap room is to visit?

Grant:
Yes.

Heather:
If you want to pick favorites.

Karl:
Oh, pick favorites. Here, locally, I feel like Siren Rock’s done a really good job. Have you guys…

Grant:
Oh, yeah.

Karl:
Been out there?

Grant:
Yeah. I know them well.

Karl:
Okay. Yeah. I think it’s not a surprise that we like their tap room. We’ve worked with them pretty closely or… We were there to answer whatever questions they had and whatnot, because when they were opening, they said, “Hey, we feel like you guys have just done a really great job. Do you mind if we tour the place? Can we take pictures?”

Karl:
I mean, that’s been very open relationship we’ve had with those guys about that, and I feel like they’ve definitely captured a lot of the same things that we were trying to do when we designed our tap room. So, I like that one. I mean, I feel like the ultimate is just Stone, right? I mean…

Grant:
Yeah.

Karl:
You almost can’t even consider it part of the brewery, it’s just such an experience to go, to sit there in their garden.

Grant:
The world beer gardens, that’s what you’re talking about?

Karl:
What’s that?

Grant:
The world beer gardens, Stone’s world beer garden, is that what you’re talking about?

Karl:
Is that what it is? I don’t know. We were there…

Grant:
Got the band [inaudible 01:07:46]-

Karl:
We were there 10 or 12 years ago and I think… And I don’t know what it was, but yeah, we just basically went, and had an amazing lunch, and then did a tour of the facility, and… Yeah. I think that’s probably the ultimate, man.

Grant:
That’s like Disney World level quality.

Karl:
Yeah. And there’s a lot I haven’t been to. I believe Sierra Nevada has a pretty crazy one. We were actually up in Kansas City Boulevard has a really cool… And once again, it’s completely separate. It’s like, across the street, but it’s like this 1800s, three-story brick, just gorgeous, old building, and they did a really, really nice job with it. But yeah, there’s a lot of good ones out there.

Heather:
Yeah, for sure. And I do definitely think I need to make a trip down to come see the chat room.

Grant:
Yes.

Heather:
It seems like, everything is just very intentional. And I love that. And I was going to say, I love your branding. When I was looking up stuff before the interview, I was like, “Ooh, that looks so clean and so perfect.”

Karl:
Oh, thank you. Yeah. I think a lot of people, when I say, “Oh, yeah, my wife and I work together.” And I think vice versa. When she’s like, “Yeah, my husband and I…” There’s like an assumption there that because a lot of those businesses where it’s two spouses, one of them just kind of gets the job by default because they’re married to the other one. And I don’t know.

Karl:
If anyone got the job by default, in this case, it’s me, because she kills it on the… And then, also, with the distributor relationships, customer relationships… Yeah. She kills it.

Grant:
So, if you’re ever in the Dallas area, you need a beer, you need a coffee or anything even early in the morning, if you’re out there listening, go by Manhattan Project, check it out, follow them on Instagram. Thanks for coming on the show, Karl.

Heather:
Thanks so much, Karl.

Karl:
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Grant:
Thanks again to our guests, David and Aaron from Proof Brewing, and Karl from Manhattan Project.

Grant:
Show your favorite tap room some love this week. We’ll be back next time for a special distilling episode. Cheers.