EPISODE S.3, E.14

[DISTILL MY HEART]

Toby: (00:09)
Welcome back to another episode of the BrewDeck podcast. I am your host today, Toby Tucker, along with the usual, if you will, Mr. Grant Lawrence, our TM covering the south central area. How you doing, Grant?

Grant: (00:25)
Doing well.

Toby: (00:25)
We also got another guest cohost today, who’s not unfamiliar with the podcast, because he’s been on several times, our resident expert, if you will, on the distilling side for Country Mall Group, Mr. Geoff Fisher. How you doing, buddy?

Geoff: (00:41)
I’m doing great. Good to be back on the podcast, and talking to talking to and about a subject that is near and dear to my heart. I’m real excited to get back into the discussion we were having. That was great.

Toby: (00:54)
That’s right. Appreciate you jumping on, Geoff. Geoff’s the TM for us covering Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Ohio, and West Virginia. The first two, obviously a lot going on as far as distilling out in his neck of the woods. Good to have you. Then lastly, super excited to have him back on the show. For those of you who have not been solid listeners of us, one of our early episodes in season one, we called it, It’s Ready When It’s Ready. We were graced to have this individual on and join us, Mr. Kevin Brent Smith, previously of Jack Daniels at the time.

Kevin Smith: (01:38)
True.

Toby: (01:40)
Great to have you on. We ran into each other at CBC, and that’s another subject I want to bring up too. Always enjoyed listening to you. I thought, “You know what? We need to get him back on the show.” Just a wealth of knowledge and super interesting talking to him. Before we get into it, he’s got quite the rap sheet, in a good way. Yeah. I could go on and on about what he’s done in this history, but just real briefly, his current role as director of distilling and brewing for a fairly new company called, Company Distillery out of towns in Tennessee. They founded it in 2021, along with yourself and some other Tennessee distilling industry leaders. It ll came together with the goal of creating some superior whiskeys, distilled spirits, and even brews, as far as the brewing side.

Kevin Smith: (02:34)
That’s right. Yeah.

Toby: (02:35)
Two locations, Thompson station, south of Nashville, and then a new one, I believe. Y’all just recently had a grand opening out in Townsend, close to Smokey Mountain National Park. Then I won’t give it away, but I believe y’all are working on some other plans for additional locations. Yeah, just a wealth of knowledge, and spent 22 years over at Brown Foreman. Specifically, Jack Daniels and primary role as distillery manager, just working quality manager, whiskey tech resource, et cetera. Man, super happy to have you back on, Kevin.

Kevin Smith: (03:15)
Well, thanks. Yeah.

Toby: (03:15)
Thank you so much.

Kevin Smith: (03:17)
I’m excited to be back. Had a good time the first go around, so I was looking forward to coming back, and chatting with y’all again. Thanks for having me.

Toby: (03:24)
Yeah. No, great. Yeah. At CBC, it was surprising to see you, number one, being in the distilling world, but had learned that you guys were planning on doing some brewing at the new facility.

Kevin Smith: (03:36)
Yeah, absolutely.

Toby: (03:38)
We sat and talked to for 20, 25 minutes, and I’m always blown away having you listen to your expertise around distilling, and other aspects as well. All that said, thank you.

Kevin Smith: (03:51)
I enjoy talking, so I appreciate the opportunity to let it rip on some technical topics around distilling and malt in particular. Yeah. Company distilling, let me just give you a little background on that. It was me and a few other leaders in the Tennessee whiskey industry. I came along a little bit later, but the primaries are Jeff Arnett, who was the former master distiller at Jack Daniels. I worked with him for 20 years or so there. Then there’s also Chris Tatum, who was a founder of old forge distillery, Eastern Tennessee, part of what is becoming a very significant Eastern Tennessee moonshine industry, which if you haven’t noticed that or taken notice of that, it’s really coming on strong.

Kevin Smith: (04:44)
It even includes one distillery that is the number one most visited trafficked distillery in the world. They are becoming significant as that mason jar moonshine. Company itself, the name is pretty unique, and so I’ll ask you to think about your personal lives whenever you’ve heard somebody say, “Company is coming.” You put on your best front, and bring out your best products. That’s what we envision with company, to create community spaces, and places for people to gather around high quality spirits, and enjoy themselves.

Toby: (05:24)
Yeah, that’s great. When I saw the name, I knew a little bit of background about the name, but it reminded me when I was younger, I’d be at my grandparents’ house and they’d say, “Oh, we got company coming over.” They’d take the plastic off of the couches in the formal living room. It’s one of those where they have the one room the kids can’t go into, and it’s vacuumed lines where they know if you see footprints in there. No, I love the name, and I love the meaning behind it.

Kevin Smith: (05:55)
Yeah. It’s one of those things that when you first hear it, it catches you off guard a little bit. Then the more you think about it, the more it grows on you. As importantly as anything, it makes people ask the question, “Well, what’s that about?” That’s a good thing to have.

Toby: (06:11)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, let’s dive right into it. We’ll talk more about Company Distilling a little bit later as we pepper this in. Today’s topic, we want to focus on American single malt. That’s one of the reasons we brought Geoff Fisher on again today is, as mentioned pre-show here is, that’s one of the areas that is just near and dear to his heart. He’s done a lot of research, and been involved in specifically the single malt. I will say, on the country malt group side, we obviously do service distilleries, but it’s a very small segment of what we do. We’re all always excited to talk distilling. Let’s talk about you coming from large production distilling. What would you say the major difference is between what you guys were doing at Jack Daniels compared to what you see on the smaller, micro distilling level, and approaches to them?

Kevin Smith: (07:18)
Yeah, obviously quite a few differences. If I focus a little bit on the malt side, I’ll also add that during my time at Jack Daniels, the last really six, eight years where Jack Daniels transitioned from a single grain bill producing the standard Tennessee whiskey recipe, that then was differentiated into several products on the backend, post maturation. They began working with different grain bills, including the rye whiskey. That’s been very successful. Then followed on with a 100% American malt whiskey as well. Now, a product hasn’t been released other than into a blended product, a triple grain type of product. I got to experience that time of growing those grain bills.

Kevin Smith: (08:12)
One of my jobs was to lead the optimization of the American malt whiskey product or grain bill, which was quite a challenge. I mean, I’ll say that the rye whiskey, the very first batch that came off the stills was just like magic. We knew that was going to be a big hit, just based on the quality and character of the distillate. Then, a couple years later when we moved to the single malt, 100% malt whiskey, I can tell you that wasn’t the case. We weren’t necessarily pleased with the first batches that came across. We went through this natural progression of moving from distillers malts, 100% distillers malt, to 100% brewer’s malts.

Kevin Smith: (08:59)
To me, it was quite profound, the difference in character and quality that, that brewer’s malt produced in 100% malt whiskey versus the distiller’s malt. It still took quite a bit of work after that in the process side, the mashing temperature profiles. One of the differences that you see is, in the larger American whiskey distilleries, or if you look at American single malt whiskeys, if they’re produced by the larger distillers, they’re going to do that standard process that they’re familiar with, which is a grain in process, versus the extractive or lowdering or wash process that you see in scotch whiskeys, for example, single malt whiskeys.

Kevin Smith: (09:44)
That’s the main difference right off the bat. It leads to a very different process, and a very different potential character of that distilled spirit. I think that now I’ll finally get to get around to answering your question about the differences. One of the things that I think is going on in the industry is, you have the larger distillers who aren’t necessarily going to go in and put in an extractive lowdering process to make a single malt whiskey. Then you might have on the other extreme, a brewer, for example, that might want to get into distilling. They’re going to have that typical brewing system with lowdering capabilities, extractive capabilities, and then would actually be fermenting a wash, and who knows what they’ll do with that.

Kevin Smith: (10:33)
More than likely they’re going to have either a pot still or a hybrid still, not necessarily a large continuous still, which these things all matter, because if you were to try to put an all grain into a pot still, lots of bad things could happen as you boil that grain in mash for a period of several hours, whereas a fermented wash or wort is going to do much nicer in a pot still or a hybrid still. I think that’s the first thing that you have to consider is the equipment that an individual facility has. Size is going to influence that, of course, but that’s really your starting point in determining what style or what type or what character of single malt whiskey you might be able to produce. I’ll pause there for a second.

Geoff: (11:22)
Yeah. That’s some interesting points you bring up Kevin, it’s something that I know has come up with a number of my customers, or I’ve talked to different distillers as they’re looking at American single malt. They’re taking a lot of cues from the scotch whiskey industry, obviously. That’s all pot stilled, it’s all lowdered, separated, it’s a wash, it’s not a mash. They’re looking to that. I know there’s some distillers that have grown or grown larger that have always operated from that since craft distilling began, where they have enacted more as a brewery in using that equipment. What are your thoughts? Do you think that something like American single malt, is there a benefit to producing it? Let’s say in the scotch style, the separation of grain from solid, and fermenting and distilling the wash, as opposed to fermenting and doing the American style of fermenting and distilling on solid. Do you think that one produces, I don’t know, for lack of a better word, a better single malt style experience?

Kevin Smith: (12:35)
Yeah. I think that there’s just probably different, but there’s some things that you would want to guard against. I mean, as I mentioned, boiling a grain in mash for several hours, I don’t think is necessarily a good idea. It leads a to a lot of breakdown components, scorching, and charring of those compounds, residual carbohydrates, et cetera, that don’t lead to pleasant flavors and aromas. I think, again, the opportunity for the American whiskey industry, distilled spirits industry, to create a distinctive product and separate category, I think if you contrast that with say, Japanese efforts at making single malt, they’ve been very, very successful at closely replicating the scotch or the Scotland processes. I don’t think that can possibly happen in the US.

Kevin Smith: (13:35)
Maybe some distilleries individually will try to do that, but I think that really, what we’re going to end up with in the US, is a broader array of character, and potential based on the size of the distillery, and the choice of equipment that’s taken. As long as those individual distilleries understand what they’re doing, and match the process capabilities that they have, they can produce very good quality spirits. Now, this leads me to, what I think, is the most critical challenge to the American whiskey industry to produce a single malt. I’ll be honest with you. I mean, I haven’t broadly surveyed. I don’t get out, and go buy, and taste, and test like I would hope I’d be able to. I’ll tell you that I haven’t been that terribly impressed with a lot of the American single malts that are available.

Kevin Smith: (14:39)
That includes what’s not available. That included the Jack Daniels malt. We finally got to where the distillate coming off the still, I felt like, was pretty awesome. It took several years to get there, and took quite a few iterations in process and mashing profile, but finally that distillate coming off the skills, was just as magical as the ride that I mentioned earlier. The challenge, again, that I think that the American distilling industry has, is it doesn’t have patience. Malt whiskey takes time to mature. I could go into probably an overly long story about some background that it just came out when we started making that American malt whiskey at Jack Daniels. What was amazing to me was that, you could take the distillate, and the glass in one hand, and the grain in the other, and they were virtually identical.

Kevin Smith: (15:35)
You got all those earthy, grassy, grainy notes in the distillate, even with a highly refined process. It’s known, it’s in the literature, it takes about seven years for that grainy character, that immaturity, to age out in a barrel. You can’t rush that. There is no rapid maturation, accelerated maturation process that’s going to take care of that. American whiskeys are used to getting an incredible value, quality, character flavor in three to four years. Obviously the industry is pushing for a little bit longer aging, but it’s not something that the American industry does well, is to let something sit in the barrel for seven, eight, nine years to finish up. That’s the biggest challenge, is having the patients to let the product mature, in my opinion.

Toby: (16:36)
Sounds like me dealing with my children. I’ve got zero patience either. I think it’s a great point. Can I step back for a second? I know our listeners… We’ve got a lot of brewers out there. We’ve got a lot of very educated folks. This is particular for my question, so maybe it’s me. I won’t point fingers at the listeners. Can somebody answer exactly the terminology, what American single malt is, like descriptor? What are we talking about here?

Geoff: (17:13)
Well-

Kevin Smith: (17:14)
The interest… Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.

Geoff: (17:17)
Oh, I was going to give what the American single malt whiskey commission is proposing.

Kevin Smith: (17:21)
Go ahead.

Geoff: (17:23)
What they’re proposing is, it has certain criteria. It has to be made with 100% malted barley. It has to be distilled entirely at a single distillery. Mashed, distilled and matured in the United States. Matured in oak casks not exceeding 700 liters, or approximately 184 gallons. Distilled to no higher than 160 proof, and bottled at 80 proof. That comes straight from the American single malt whiskey commission, which is spearheading the creation of this legally defined product spirit.

Kevin Smith: (17:58)
I’ll add to that, the TTB just submitted a proposal defining what single American single malt whiskey is. They added to that, that it has to be mashed distilled, and aged in the US, further refining that, made in the US. They’ve also added that color, flavor, and blending materials will be permitted. That was July 29th that, that proposal was issued. There’s a public comment period on that. We’ll see what shakes out from there. I personally struggle with the idea, and I don’t know what the motivation is behind it or how this was pushed, but the idea that color, flavor, and blending materials are permitted… If we’re trying to achieve a consistency in the category, then this addition, I think, in my opinion, threatens that. Hopefully that’ll be edited or refined in the final ruling.

Toby: (19:13)
Yeah. Those are very, very broad, right? Blending or color. That could be anything.

Kevin Smith: (19:20)
Well, you think about-

Geoff: (19:21)
[inaudible 00:19:21] color [inaudible 00:19:22].

Kevin Smith: (19:22)
Yeah. If you think about Canadian whiskey versus some of the American whiskeys, bourbon or Tennessee whiskey, and where caramel color could be added or individual flavors, and then that’s a different experience. You can pretty much make it into whatever you want to, based on the additions. I’m not sure, again, what the driver was behind that additional identifier.

Geoff: (19:49)
Yeah. That’s interesting. I hadn’t heard that, but obviously it was just a week ago, 10 days ago,

Kevin Smith: (19:55)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Geoff: (19:57)
That’s interesting that the TTB would propose it. I mean, something has to be behind it. A question for you along that line though, in one of the things for American single malt, it talks about being made from 100% malted barley, but that’s a pretty broad character. I know single malts that are smoked, single malts that are not. You know what I mean?

Kevin Smith: (20:19)
Right.

Geoff: (20:19)
What are your thoughts on using different malts in American single malts?

Kevin Smith: (20:25)
Well, I alluded to that a little bit when I talked about the movement from distillers malt to a brewer’s grade malt in the work at Jack Daniels, and it made a huge difference, but that was just to a base brewer’s malt. Obviously, I don’t think you see it so much in Scotland, but so many examples in America of specialty malts being used. I think, again, this is natural creative outflow of the many brewers that are starting to get into distilling, and understand how that influences the flavor and character. I mean, even back at Brown Foreman, there were some efforts at the Woodford Reserve Distillery, in producing a chocolate malted whiskey that was absolutely delightful at the Woodford Reserve Distillery. That was my first introduction to that, and it was very successful, and I certainly would pursue it myself.

Geoff: (21:31)
Yeah, I’ve had a number of straight from the still distillates, and I remember working on that Woodford project in a different iteration when that was going on. Especially straight off the still, where chocolate malts, or especially highly colored caramel malts, the flavor really comes through. It’s very pronounced flavor, even used in relatively small quantities.

Kevin Smith: (21:59)
It was interesting in that particular example. I mean, to walk into a distillery that smells like a chocolate factory, was pretty magnificent. Even those bold flavors that are present in the mash, there’s a smaller percentage of that, that makes it across the still, because some of that stuff is either not going to be volatile, or it’s going to be difficult to condense. In my experience, what happens is that, you end up getting more of a hint of the flavor, not necessarily that bold experience you have in brewing. It’s not going to affect it that profoundly. It’s more of the subtle suggestion in the background, and it can be very pleasant.

Kevin Smith: (22:43)
As I mentioned, I certainly would pursue it at our distillery here. One of the things that ties in at our current distillery, or recently opened distillery in Townsend, we don’t have a standard distillery mashing system. We have a hybrid pot still here, but we actually have a three and a half barrel brew skid that we’re going to be using to make brew, but also will be our whiskey mash system as well. We’re going to be doing an extractive louder type of whiskey wash. I think we’ll have plenty of opportunity to be creative, and flexibility to play with exactly these types of brain bills.

Toby: (23:31)
Very nice. Yeah. As mentioned when I saw you at CBC, was obviously curious what you’re doing out there, and checking things out. When you mentioned you guys were actually going to have a brew system on site, it was very intriguing, and most of the time time what we see, is breweries getting into distilleries. Really, historically in my 10 years, there’s been a bit of a divide in the two. I think the processes are very similar in some respects, many respects. Then you see a lot of people that have brewers diving into distilling, and vice versa. Are you guys actually going to have beer on tap there or just utilize it for-

Kevin Smith: (24:12)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Toby: (24:12)
Cool.

Kevin Smith: (24:14)
We’re not going to go crazy with it. It’s a smaller facility, and so I think we’ll have three styles on tap. We’re going to go for the traditional, cold side fermentation, so probably have a [inaudible 00:24:32], a Vienna style fest beer, and lower alcohol to compliment the higher proof spirits that we’re producing. Yeah. In our larger facility that we’ll build in Alco in a few years, will have a 30 barrel system. We’ll move the flagships, whatever we determine those to be based on what our customers tell us they like. Then, the smaller system will become our playground, and we’ll produce the more specialty styles. I look forward to just getting on line, and going. One of our challenges here, is that we’re on a septic system. This is actually part of our sustainability initiatives, is using the brew system to be able to separate the grains out up front, so we’ll have less impact on our septic system as well.

Kevin Smith: (25:23)
It all ties in there. I will say too that, I think it’s a good opportunity to talk about distillery versus brewery design. I’m on record several times of saying that, a lot of times, distillers don’t do a very good job of process design. It’s a very equipment centric focus. If a distiller wants to build a distillery, they’ll say, “Well, what am I going to do? What am I going to make? What’s the style of still I want?” Then you just backfill in the equipment. Whereas, a brewer tends to take a more process centric approach to design, and that’s not a necessity, because that product is going to go right into a consumer’s mouth, so you have to worry about sanitation, and food safety. The sanitary design, and the build, and the integration, the controls, all of that, I think, operates at a typically a higher level, and leads to a cleaner, and more controlled mashing, and therefore distillate.

Grant: (26:27)
Speaking of you earlier talking about chocolate malt, for example, something that’s more associated with brewing, while we’re on that topic, have you given any thought, since you’ll have a brewery at your new place, brewing, they use so many different kinds of yeast, make Belgian beers, that sort of thing. I’ve heard a little bit of rumblings from craft distillers about using Belgian yeast, for example, to ferment a wash. Is that something that y’all thought about or considering?

Kevin Smith: (27:01)
Oh yeah, absolutely. As the former yeast master at Jack Daniels, I’ve got a lot of yeast tricks up my sleeve. Obviously, as you mentioned, the yeast has a much more direct, and noticeable impact on beer, than it does in a distillery, because sometimes some of those flavors, those yeast imparted flavors, won’t carry over through distillation. As I mentioned with a malt, it’s going to be a much more muted effect. It is a significant effect, and I truly believe that it makes a difference, so finding the right yeast. Yeah, I have several ideas on the styles of yeast that I’ll be using. There’s also a movement in the industry to do your own yeast strangling, so to find local strains that might work well in the distillery. I think that if I were to try a whiskey, a malt whiskey of a particular style that reflected a standard beer style, I would choose that appropriate yeast for it, just the same. That would be the easiest.

Geoff: (28:18)
On that topic, Kevin, I was at an IBD conference in Glasgow a number of years ago, and one of the presentations was on the importance of the lactic fermentation in scotch whiskey production, as it pertains to the creation of fatty acids that then during maturation are converted to fruity esters. The lactic was critical to that. That had to be that dual fermentation of the traditional M1 yeast, plus whatever lactic was living in there wooden wash backs.

Kevin Smith: (28:49)
Right.

Geoff: (28:51)
I guess, I don’t know if it’s so much a question or a thought on, when you talk about having a local flavor or a local yeast, would something like a wild yeast or a lactic producing yeast or bacteria… I think it would be important in the creation of something like an American single malt.

Kevin Smith: (29:10)
Yeah, absolutely. Of course, at Jack Daniels, we used the lactic sour yeast mash in the process. I’ll say that, in my time and efforts defining traditional aspects of whiskey making in the process of context, that was a big part of it. The use of a proprietary yeast strain cultured in a lactic sour yeast mash. I absolutely believe that it has a huge impact on the whiskey character and flavor, particularly the aster profiles in the mature product. The challenges is how you do that, how you do that in a controlled way. It’s interesting, there’s a lot of talk in the scotch whiskey industry in Scotland about that. What you’ll see is, a lot of their fermentations will, as they finish up, you get that souring effect, as the yeast settles down, that’s when you usually get the onset of lots of lactics growing, mopping, everything up that the yeast didn’t utilize.

Kevin Smith: (30:15)
They get very significant lactic production at the end of fermentation. The way that we do it in the American whiskey industry, at least traditionally, not many distillers are doing, and it’s fallen by the wayside sadly, but you introduce that lactic bacteria into a special yeast mash. You allow it to grow, and lower the pH, produce a lot of lactic acid in that yeast mash, but then you pasteurize that, raise the temperature killing off the bacteria so it doesn’t go forward and compete with the yeast. You do get all that lactic acid production up front, but in a controlled, and consistent way. It’s a very difficult thing to maintain for small distilleries that don’t have the resources or expertise to do that, but it certainly is possible. There’s some innovations. I may have to applaud Lalamond for their lactic producing… I think they have a yeast that produces some lactic, and then some bacteria that you can co-inoculate as well.

Geoff: (31:17)
I think you’re talking about sour veciay.

Kevin Smith: (31:19)
Sour veciay, right. It’s funny, because having worked for Lalamond, I’m still friends with a lot of those folks there, and think a lot of them, and their technical capabilities. What’s been fascinating for me to watch is that, as the industry basically forgot about lactic souring processes, they’ve been able to bring this product forward, and almost is like they’re recreating this sour rash process. It’s fun to watch their success in that. The very positive benefit that it does have in the fermentation environment as well.

Toby: (31:56)
Good stuff.

Kevin Smith: (31:57)
Our tagline too at Company is that… Our first product released was a weeded bourbon, maple finished. We all got together to make the whiskey that we always wanted to make, and we discovered it was the whiskey we always wanted to drink, and only drink. I spend probably more time working on my own whiskey than I do anything else, to be honest with you. I do have some favorites across the industry. I mean, I have to say that several others, the old forester 1920 prohibition blend is probably one of my favorites outside of Company. It has long been.

Grant: (32:39)
Is that their bottled and bond?

Kevin Smith: (32:42)
Right, yeah.

Grant: (32:42)
Yeah.

Kevin Smith: (32:44)
It has so much of that. It’s the most magical yeast that’s used to make old forester. That particular bottling just highlights the yeast character so well.

Grant: (32:55)
Right on.

Toby: (32:56)
I know we’ve got a wide range of listeners here, but I’m sure we’ve got several distillers here going to be plugin, listen to this. For someone like you who’s been in the industry, and of your stature, if you will, you have any advice for anyone new that’s wanting to jump into the distilling industry or get started, or make a leap in starting their own distillery? Any advice? Any hiccups? Any information that might be interesting for them to hear from you?

Kevin Smith: (33:29)
Gosh, just be willing to work hard. I mean, that’s what it’s all about. I think, of course, if you’re like me, you just have a love for it, and you go home and do it in your spare time as well. It’s got to be a great time to be entering the industry with so many craft distillers and brewers coming online, and the opportunities. It always amazes me, the people that you see opening and starting these breweries and distilleries, I mean, it’s usually not people that have the experience and the background. I guess I could say, don’t let that stop you if you have a love for it. You see people all the time that have been doing it for maybe a few years at home, and just have, have the courage to go out and start a business.

Kevin Smith: (34:19)
I think that there are so many opportunities to do internships, and to get some association with an operating distillery or brewery, and get that experience. There’s many fermentation science programs. A lot of universities are coming up with a lot of distilleries and breweries. It seems like every distillery that’s starting up is going to have some educational platform. That includes Company Distilling. We plan to do something similar. I just met with University of Tennessee Foundation folks last week, and trying to figure out ways to collaborate with them, and their programs, and to utilize some of their students going through those programs as interns, and even part-time help to help give them that experience.

Geoff: (35:13)
I was curious what Kevin’s thoughts are, just in a little bit on the single malt question again is, what are your thoughts on GN production? [inaudible 00:35:24]. It’s obviously regulated in Scotland and very prevalent in more malt that you use. Do you see it something that eventually will be more highly regulated here or something that distilleries entering the market, especially American single malt, should think about?

Geoff: (35:41)
Absolutely. I did work with the American Malt Barley Association on their technical committee. In those efforts, we looked at, and approved barley varieties for use. That was one of the things that I said, is that I don’t think that we can responsibly approve another barley variety for distilling, that isn’t low GM with that low ethyl carbonate potential. That is something that American industry is playing catch up on, obviously. The single malt whiskey industry in Europe obviously realized the importance of it. When you’re 100% malt barley, you really do have to pay attention to it, because your pressures versus a 10% malt inclusion rate are going to be 10 times more. There just weren’t the varieties being grown in North America that were the low GN varieties. It’s taken the seed companies a while to catch up on that. I think they are. I think some of the work that even I did at Jack Daniels looking at moving towards those brewers varieties, and looking those low GN varieties, and looking at the impact that it had on ECs, it really has an incredible pronounced effect at decreasing EC potential by having a lower non.

Geoff: (37:06)
It doesn’t take a non-GN, it’s just at least a low GN will knock those levels significantly down. I think the time is coming. I mean, I’ve also looked at re-specing the malt. I think that was the thing that was eyeopening for me in that process was, how much better the distillate coming off of a brewer’s malt was versus a distiller’s malt, high protein, et cetera. I mean, if you’ve ever tried to make beer with a distiller’s malt, it’s absolutely horrible. It’s not that the distillate was that bad, but it does actually brighten up if you use a Brewer’s grade malt. I did a lot of work to re-spec, and redesign process to be able to successfully utilize a brewer’s grade malt in the distilling process, even at lower inclusion rates at 8% to 10%. I don’t want to go into too much of the detail on that, but it is possible, and it is possible to improve, and even shift the whole industry in terms of what distillers malt looks like, what those specs are.

Toby: (38:15)
Good stuff. Geoff, I know you’ve actually put a lot of work into the subject itself. I believe we talked about it on the first episode of the BrewDeck podcast, right?

Geoff: (38:27)
I think we touched on it, yeah. Especially talking about at the time that we did that, there was only one. Now, there’s only really one or two that I know of, American multi companies or large multi companies, I should say [inaudible 00:38:43], regional ones that are utilizing low to no GN producing barley varieties. They’re working on more as Kevin noted with the American Malt Barley Association, to bring more in, and see how they grow, and where they grow. Traditionally, if that was something you were interested in, you had to look at an imported, a UK or Scottish barley. Yeah, I think we talked about it a bit.

Toby: (39:06)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I know Great Western being one of them with a fairly new non-GN available for distilleries. Yep.

Geoff: (39:16)
Absolutely. Yeah. Currently it’s being made with odyssey, which is a low to no GM producer. Like I said, they’re all looking at other varieties for it as well.

Kevin Smith: (39:26)
I did intend with the Alcoa facility, well, even here in Townsend, is that I’m going to actually use the same base malt for both brewing and distilling. Like I said, I’m going to push the envelope on that, and hopefully get, well, certainly will get a better distillate because of it.

Geoff: (39:46)
Nice.

Toby: (39:47)
All right. Think I would be doing our co-host, Heather Jared, a disservice if I didn’t ask. She’s certified cicerone. Very much food, beer pairing, stuff like that. Is there a trend in whiskey pairing? Is that something that you guys get into or will get into?

Kevin Smith: (40:04)
Yeah. In our facility here, we do have a restaurant. It’s a small restaurant, and we’ve actually partnered with a local company, Amichees, to create the Amico, which means friend in Italian, I guess. They’re serving here from Tuesday through Sunday, and have quite a nice menu. I don’t know that we’ve necessarily worked directly on pairing yet. What I’ve found that everything goes with truffle fries really well. It’s my favorite.

Toby: (40:37)
That’s a good point.

Kevin Smith: (40:40)
Yeah. I think, ultimately it’s part of the tourism, and experience that we would provide for our customers. Besides spending a day with the brewer kind of thing, regular tastings, cocktail training experiences, I think that we’re going to grow into the tourism side, into all those efforts as well. It’s going to take us a while to get… I mean, we just had our grand opening on July 8th, so we’re still trying to get everything developed, including expanding distribution a little bit. We’re available… Our bourbon. I should mention that we have a gin as well. We have ghost rail, which is produced at the Thompson station. It was formerly the Heath Clark Distillery. That spirit is all made in house.

Kevin Smith: (41:34)
It was actually awarded the Fred Minick Ascot award for the best gin in America last year. It’s a very high quality gin, and it’s in a beautiful new package, and it’s selling like crazy. Our products are available in Tennessee and Georgia. They’re also available online through the online company, Seal Box. We do hope to be expanding distribution. We’re also making a line of specialty distilled spirits. Again, similar to the many local Mason jar moon shines. We’ve taken to calling this Sophisticated Shine, and are wrapping around a cocktail experience around the spirits, and trying to be creative, and teaching people how to use those products, rather than just buying souvenirs and having them sit in the refrigerators at home.

Toby: (42:28)
You guys are doing awesome stuff out there. I’m excited to visit. [inaudible 00:42:36].

Kevin Smith: (42:36)
Yeah, I invite you all to come out and visit. Yeah, I would love to see you here in Townsend, it’s absolutely beautiful. We call it the peaceful side of the Smokey’s in Townsend. We’re a quarter mile away from the Smokey Mountain National Park. There’s actually, what I’m excited about, there’s a 250 acre mountain bike park in the mountain just behind the distillery. We’re hoping that if you come out and ride those trails, I’ll be down to provide you with a refreshing [inaudible 00:43:02] after you stomp the hills.

Toby: (43:05)
Well, hey, Kevin, I really appreciate your time. It’s always a pleasure to have you on. In all honesty, we could probably do about five hours of these. Your expertise is always awesome to listen to. Good to have you on. Hopefully we can have you on again at some point. Really appreciate you just scratching the surface on the American single malt, and telling us a little bit more about what you’re doing up there. Great to have you on. Thanks, again.

Kevin Smith: (43:29)
Likewise. Thanks, Toby. Thanks, Geoff.

Grant: (43:32)
Now we’re about to do something fun that we haven’t done in a while on the BrewDeck podcast. Are you ready for this? We call this segment, The Whirlpool. Really, a pun intended, where we just have a good time. We grab a beverage, jump in the hot water, and turn up the heat with a special guest. Today, we’re going to phone a friend to come hang out with us. Are you in? Kevin Kawa is joining us today. He’s the technical applications and account manager for AB Biotech.

Geoff: (44:03)
Excellent.

Kevin Kawa: (44:04)
Thanks for having.

Grant: (44:05)
Great to have somebody with as much background as you have on our show, so we can pick your brain a little bit. Correct me if I’m wrong, you’ve been both a brewer and a distiller at some point in your career?

Kevin Kawa: (44:17)
Yeah, that is correct. Yeah, I’ve done a little bit of everything. I started off in the brewing industry, but knew I really wanted to get more into distilled spirits, so found my way into that. I’ve been doing that, and technical sales, and that fun stuff for a few years now, and been with AB Biotech for over two years.

Grant: (44:39)
Kevin, we wanted to have you on today to talk a little bit about American single malt. Being that you’re with AB Biotech, for those out there who don’t know, AB Biotech makes some great yeasts, and just other things for the distilling industry, along with all kinds of other food products. Can you give us just a brief history of AB Biotech’s role in the distilling industry?

Kevin Kawa: (45:03)
Yeah. AB Biotech is part of a larger group, AB Mari, which is a part of another group, which is, Associated British Foods. Amy Mari has the brand named, Flashman’s, which is baker’s yeast, but a lot of people don’t actually know that started out as a distilling yeast as well. 150 years ago in the US, Flashman’s was a distillery, and had a distilling yeast. We really got a lot of the history there. AB Biotech has been this off branch of this AB Mari. Basically, everything that’s not baking focus. That’s wine, beer, spirits, all that good stuff. My main focus is really on the distilling side of things. We’ve got a pretty good distilling portfolio. A few yeast that hit pretty much anything that you would need, and can do some really cool fermentations.

Grant: (46:05)
Yeah, I see that here. I guess there’s about four different distilling yeasts. I’m not off there?

Kevin Kawa: (46:13)
Yeah. Yeah. The four that we have are, and they’re just under what we call, The Pinnacle Brand. Then, they’re just different letter differentiations after that. We’ve got probably our shining star, which is the MG plus. I can talk a little bit more about that here in a second. We’ve got that. We’ve got the M. M being for malt. We’re talking American single malt. This is one that’s used pretty frequently in scotch single malt, and those sorts of things, along with the MG plus, which is like malt grain, and more. We also have an S, which is for sugar fermentations, really good for rum. Then, clean fermentors there. Then finally, our pinnacle G, which is grain fermentations, good for any neutral grain that you would need, or any other experimental grains you might be doing. It’s really more of a good, general distilling yeast.

Grant: (47:12)
Got it. Got it. I guess those cover all the bases, but out of those, like you said, M would be what you’d recommend for an American single malt? Am I getting this right? It’s like a scotch whiskey?

Kevin Kawa: (47:27)
Yeah. M and MG plus would be the two actually.

Grant: (47:30)
M, okay.

Kevin Kawa: (47:31)
M is a bit more traditional. If you really wanted to try to follow that traditional scotch style whiskey, as an American whiskey, M is a good go. It’s a bit of a slower fermentor, but it’s a slow, steady, if you really want to build flavor, and that sort of thing. MG plus is a newer hybrid. It’s similar to M, but has a bit more fun features with it. It has better temperature tolerance, better osmotic pressure tolerance, pH tolerance, those sorts of things, and can really get you some really cool flavors out of that. If you’re wanting to do something that’s maybe a bit more experimental or something you have time constraints on your fermentation, or anything like that, MG plus is probably the best way to go. If you’re wanting more traditional M’s, M is a good option if you want something a bit more modern, but still has that callback to tradition. MG plus is really probably going to be your best bet.

Grant: (48:39)
Gotcha. Sounds like MG plus would be the choice for a bourbon.

Kevin Kawa: (48:43)
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Geoff: (48:46)
Hey Kevin, when I went on the trip that I was in Scotland, and I attended an IBD conference in Glasgow, and had a chance to tour, and do some minor work at some scotch distilleries, what I noticed is, and what the discussion was in one of the papers at the IBD, was really the importance of the mix fermentation and scotch whiskey. The lactic fermentation along with the standard fermentation, producing the certain fatty acids that get during maturation converted to fruity esters. Which of those two yeast, the M or the MG plus, do you think would serve well for a distiller that was looking to emulate that, and maybe add something like a lactic producing yeast, or as specifically, a lactic producing bacteria, and do that blended mixed fermentation?

Kevin Kawa: (49:39)
Yeah, sure. I’d say MG plus is probably going to be a bit of… If you didn’t want to add anything else to it, and wanted the yeast to do a little bit of that work for you. The cool thing with MG plus is, depending on the conditions, it will actually change around a little bit of the, like you said, the esters and the [inaudible 00:50:01] that it’s producing. Interestingly enough, MG plus at higher gravities seems to produce more fruity esters, and those sorts of things, versus that lower gravity fermentation.

Geoff: (50:14)
Okay.

Kevin Kawa: (50:14)
While it’s not your full traditional mix fermentation, it can do some of those on its own.

Geoff: (50:21)
Right.

Kevin Kawa: (50:21)
If you wanted to follow that tradition, I’d say M is probably your best bet for something to add a mixed fermentation to. It’s not going to out compete some of those lactic yeasts or all that, quite as much as MG plus would.

Geoff: (50:36)
Okay.

Kevin Kawa: (50:36)
If you’re really wanting to imitate that, then that would probably be your better bet.

Geoff: (50:43)
Very cool.

Grant: (50:44)
Tell me a little bit. You’re out, you’re visiting distilleries, we’re visiting distilleries, and what we do, but from a yeast standpoint, what are American single malt distilleries, their flavor profile? Is there any overarching trend that they’re after?

Kevin Kawa: (51:05)
I mean, I think what’s really cool with American single malt is, it’s got a bit more room for experimentation. You see in scotch single malts, and those sorts of things, they’re pretty focused in on tradition, and they’ve got a certain way of doing things, and they really stick to that. American single malt, I think, has a lot more opportunity to push the boundaries a little bit. I’m seeing some distillers that are trying even different specialty malts. Instead of just using a plain base grain, they’re throwing in some caramel malts, or maybe some roast malts, or chocolate malts, to try and bring out some other flavors early on before the barrel aging process and whatnot. I think what’s really cool, and what American single malts have, is a really good opportunity right now, is that experimentation, because a lot of bourbons are being produced.

Kevin Kawa: (52:00)
Bourbon, yes you will get flavor from the yeast, you will get flavor from the corn, and the grains that you’re using, but because they’re using brand new charred oak, you get a lot of your flavor coming from that oak. American single malts usually are using a second fill, an ex bourbon barrel or something else, and it really allows for a lot more experimentation of the different flavors of what not only the east can do, but what the malts that are being used can do, and all that. I think there’s really a sweet spot for the US to develop a really cool, unique single malt that you’re really not seeing anywhere else.

Geoff: (52:43)
Yeah, I would completely agree. I think that’s one of the coolest things about the American single malt movement. We both traveled to Scotland, and are very familiar with the whiskeys they produce, but you’re absolutely right, they’re very locked into tradition, and there is a lot of regulation behind the production of whiskey, and what you can call a single malt. The US, while it’s trying to create certain regulations of what you can call an American single malt, and I think those are important, there is so much creativity. I mean, it’s going part and parcel with what craft beer did. We took something that was a very traditional product from Europe, and the UK, and we’ve made it our own, and still operating within those guidelines. I think it’s really cool, and I think that yeast will play a big part of that. I think as distillers move away from what is traditional, the American whiskeys, or the M1 for malt yeast that they can use different vendors, or different flavor profiles, and brewer’s yeast even, to a degree. Right?

Kevin Kawa: (53:46)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there’s certainly co-inoculation, things that people are trying. Trying different things, trying to build out different flavors. I think a lot of times yeast was always looked at as, this is just what produces the ethanol, and now more and more people are realizing how much flavor you can get out of using different yeasts, and the impact of that. Really doing your yeast selection, taking the time to really look at the different yeasts, look at what flavor profiles they could bring, is important. That’s why I like, even with our M and our MG plus on our tech sheets, we’ve got the flavor wheels on there, and It will give you an idea of what flavors you’ll be getting out of that yeast. It’s really cool to see that more people are starting to recognize the importance of everything that goes into the batch, and not just looking at maybe just the malt, or just the barrels, or something like that. Realizing that there’s lots of opportunity to really build some differentiation and some uniqueness.

Geoff: (54:52)
Yeah, absolutely. Question for you, just a quick one.

Kevin Kawa: (54:54)
Yeah?

Geoff: (54:55)
Did you ever do just pilot distillations with a similar mash or wash with a different yeast strain? As a brewer I did it or other brewers have done it, but have you ever seen that done on a distilling side?

Kevin Kawa: (55:09)
Yeah. I have, and I’ve done a little bit of experimentation myself. Luckily we had, when I was over in Scotland, we had access to some distillation equipment where we could do some small scale stuff, and still be on their legal license thing. Yeah. I mean, it’s one of those things that a lot of times people think you have to wait until the end, until it’s done barreling to really know how the finished spirit is going to be. Having done some of the experimentations on same mash bill, different yeasts, and those sorts of things, you really notice that those flavors really do carry through in the distillation. You can really get an idea of what your finished product is going to be, tasting the new make right off the distill. If I’m out visiting at a distillery, and they’ll allow me to taste their new make, I can get a really good idea what their finished product is going to be like, depending on how they barrel it just from that. Again, a lot of those flavors at that point are coming from your malt selections, and your yeast selections.

Geoff: (56:19)
Incredible. Very cool.

Grant: (56:21)
Yeah. Yeah. I’ve only had the opportunity to do that a couple times during my travels, like taste new make coming straight off a still. It is pretty wild to think how different they are, just being a brewer, it’s all new territory for me. Kind of like what you were saying with single malt in general, it sounds like. Overall, it’s still basically new territory in terms of ironing out a standard. We haven’t really established that yet. Yeah. Cool. Very cool to be sure. Just lots of experimentation opportunities out there that I… Like you were saying, most of the world sounds like they’re stuck in tradition, and we’re over here innovating it. Yeah. I can’t wait.

Kevin Kawa: (57:08)
Yeah. I think that’s well said, and I think you’re right on point with that. It’s really an exciting time to be doing American single malt, just because you don’t know what’s going to be on the cusp. I mean, who knows, someone could come out with the new thing that everyone wants to get their hands on, and builds all that excitement, and hype as it were, for it. Yeah. There’s lots of opportunity out there. We’re really excited to certainly be part of the distilled spirits industry, and the yeast that we have to offer, I think, can do some really cool, fun fermentations. Yeah. If you treat your yeast right, you’re going to have good consistence, good quality, and that’s really what I think everyone’s certainly after.

Geoff: (58:01)
Question for you just about, maybe this is more technical, but a question about sugar washes. You talk about rums… Or of course, the US has been, we’ve had a lot of sugar shine or moonshine type of distillates that have become popular over the last 10 years or so. I know that you have a yeast specifically for sugar. Is there anything special or particular about yeasts for digesting simple sugars like that? I mean, I know it’s always been a little bit of a challenge.

Kevin Kawa: (58:30)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeast is a living organism, so it’s one of those things that you have to really pay attention to your nutrition as well when you’re doing any sort of sugar fermentation. It’s just like if you yourself were to try and eat just candy or something like that. You’re not going to get all of the complex nutrition that you need. I mean, the yeast has to be taken care of, and really making sure that, especially if you’re doing a simple sugar… I mean, the yeast will be able to ferment it, and it will be able to utilize it, but it’s not necessarily going to be at its happiest, and you might start to have it push some sulfur or push some off labors that you don’t want. Making sure you’ve got good, proper nutrition, and keeping up with that is certainly important with any straight sugar fermentation. That’s going to be true of pretty much anything. I mean, the yeast is suspended in some sort of nutrient media when it’s dried, but it’s not enough for a full fermentation at that point.

Geoff: (59:41)
I’ve definitely tried to teach my kids they can’t survive on just sugar. That’s an amazing analogy, I’ve never thought of it that way. That’s a great analogy, so thanks for that.

Kevin Kawa: (59:51)
Yeah, absolutely.

Geoff: (59:52)
Very cool.

Grant: (59:55)
Now, both of y’all feel free to jump in here, and correct me if I’m wrong. One thing that I’ve seen with the few American single malt places down in my area is… I’m coming at this as a distilling layman here. I’m just a brewer. They prototype their American single malts in these little five gallon barrels. A lot of places are able to turn them over a lot faster, because a typical, if you’re comparing a scotch or something, those hit their stride around 12 years or eight years. Are the five gallon barrels just here to stay? What’s the distilling, I guess, outlook on that?

Kevin Kawa: (01:00:44)
Yeah. I think the five gallon-

Grant: (01:00:47)
Are they [inaudible 01:00:47]?

Kevin Kawa: (01:00:47)
No, not at all. Not at all. I think that the five gallon barrels are a good option for someone that’s new, that they’re trying to figure out exactly what their style is, and what they’re trying to do. Certainly you have to keep a closer eye on a five gallon barrel than you would a full size 53 gallon bourbon, just because as you said, I mean, the surface area on that you can get a lot faster oak pickup, and those sorts of things. You really have to pay more attention to it, but you can have a product that’s coming out a little bit sooner. I know there’s other places that are trying to figure out rapid aging, and those sorts of things. I know that’s a whole nother discussion for another time.

Grant: (01:01:35)
Yeah.

Kevin Kawa: (01:01:36)
I mean, it’s interesting to see what experimentation is going on. I think five gallon barrels are a good way to get an idea of what your product might be like if you were to give it a full barrel treatment at a later time.

Geoff: (01:01:56)
[inaudible 01:01:56]-

Grant: (01:01:56)
Like if you were trying a different yeast or a different malt or something, or like you were saying, specialty grains.

Kevin Kawa: (01:02:04)
Yeah, yeah. You could do… Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s about scaling for experimentation, and if you’re not comfortable doing a full size batch or something like that, and want to get an idea, I mean, the nice thing is because of your service area, it may end up aging a little bit quicker, so you can taste a closer to finished product than you would letting it sit, and having it go through the full seasons in a full cask.

Grant: (01:02:35)
Gotcha.

Geoff: (01:02:36)
That’s how I’ve seen it used, Grant. A lot of times, I mean, obviously for smaller distillers that are trying to turn a product a little quicker, but a lot of times I’ve seen them used in pilot facilities with different grains. I haven’t seen it in my experience when… I didn’t sell a lot of different yeast. I sold mostly malt. Where different grains, they wanted to see how it would interact with the flavors from a barrel. How much of that vanilla, caramel flavors were going to ride over chocolate malts? How much of the caramel flavor from a very dark crystal would come through? Things like that. I do know some about rapid aging. When I was in an IBD conference, there was a Harriet Watt paper where somebody was looking at the effects of using micro oxygenation, even in stainless tanks to mimic the oxygenation you get for barrels. There’s a lot of research going on into figuring out how to mature spirits quickly or differently. It’s a very cool process.

Grant: (01:03:36)
For sure. For sure. Yeah. We’re just getting started here in the US, I guess, is what I’m trying to get at with this podcast. I want to see American single malt just continue to grow, and take off. I know that’s really your favorite spirit, Geoff. I guess, trying to make a Brewer’s analogy. I guess we’re about where, in terms of American single malts, we’re about where American IPAs were in the early ’90s, you could say at this point. We have a long ways to go of establishing it just at the market quality that an American IPA is now. These days you go to UK, or you go to Germany or whoever, and a lot of those brewers over there are really hyped up about American IPA. I think American single malt, if it stays on the same trajectory, it’ll be right there. Just an established product and market quality, if we do it right.

Geoff: (01:04:46)
Absolutely. I think the world will look to it as they have now at bourbon. The rest of the world has now embraced bourbon as a quality item, not just malt whiskey. I think American single malt can go there.

Kevin Kawa: (01:05:01)
Yeah, absolutely. I think your analogy to the IPAs in the ’90s, I think that’s spot on. I think it’s really on the cusp. Yeah. I think there’s, obviously with aging and barrel aging, it takes more time, but I know there’s certainly lots of producers out there that are starting that, and really getting out there. I think we’re really going to start to see that growth, and once some of these ones that have been produced a few years ago start hitting the shelves, I think more and more people are going to realize how good quality of a product American single malts can be, and really grow that category. As that grows, it’s just going to be a slingshot a little bit, I think, if it’s done, again, as you said, if it’s done right.

Geoff: (01:05:53)
Yeah. I think it’s something. I remember when I really got into craft distilling, and I looked around, and I said, “What was the need for this?” Obviously in the ’80s when there was craft beer coming on, there was a need. There was a need for beer with flavor. When it came to whiskeys, I had at the beginning, what I thought we needed. We had good bourbons. We had good scotch. There was good whiskey. Why do I need a local whiskey? When I started tasting a lot of the flavors that these local producers were trying to achieve, it blew my mind. It really opened me up. I think the innovation is going to come through American single malt or through reinventing traditional spirits to a degree. I think that’s where we’re going to see some great innovation. Again, I think that the sky’s the limit on where we can go with it.

Kevin Kawa: (01:06:42)
Yeah. I think you’re right on point with that. There’s a flavor revolution that’s happening in the spirits category that you… There’s single barrels that a lot of the large groups are trying to find ways to help differentiate themselves, and get some of those unique flavors coming out. I think it’s really going to be craft that owns that flavor revolution in spirits. Yeah. I think we’re just on the cusp of it, and more and more people are going to start paying attention to ways of how they can differentiate flavor. I think, obviously malt and different specialty malts will be away, and yeast is going to be another big, important player in that. Yeah, I think we’re excited for what we’ve got at AB Biotech, and we’re excited for where things are headed as well, and what we’ve got in the research and development pipeline, and those sorts of things too.

Grant: (01:07:44)
Absolutely.

Geoff: (01:07:46)
Well, you’re an amazing resource. I’m glad that I have a chance to touch base with you on some other things. You’ve really been a fantastic resource.

Kevin Kawa: (01:07:55)
Yeah. I appreciate it. Really excited be working with Country Malt, and continuing to work together, and collaborate as best as we can. We’re excited, because we… I’ll give you guys a little teaser. We’re looking to bring out some dried beer yeast line here in the future as well. That’s just a little…

Grant: (01:08:18)
Absolutely.

Kevin Kawa: (01:08:19)
… Teaser that we’ll be doing. Yeah. We’re really excited…

Geoff: (01:08:25)
That exciting.

Kevin Kawa: (01:08:25)
… For the future, and excited for where things are going.

Grant: (01:08:28)
Yeah. Well, if you’re out there listening, stay tuned, because like Kevin just teased, they’re coming. We’re working on it here in the background. Yeah, we’ll have some plenty of exciting yeast for all of our craft brewers, and distillers to use here in the future.

Kevin Kawa: (01:08:44)
Absolutely. I really appreciate you having me. This was fantastic discussion. I think I’m excited to see what American craft distillers can do. I think keeping the doors of collaboration open… I mean, American craft beer has been doing a lot to push the boundaries, as we talked about, and keeping those collaborative lines open. I think that it will help continue to push American craft spirits in the same direction.

Geoff: (01:09:14)
Will we see you in St. Louis at the ADI?

Kevin Kawa: (01:09:17)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I will be there. Yeah.

Geoff: (01:09:20)
I look forward to having a drink.

Grant: (01:09:22)
Yeah.

Kevin Kawa: (01:09:23)
Yeah, as do I.

Grant: (01:09:25)
All right. Join us again in a couple of weeks, we’re working on another topic, and I’ll just tease it real quick. We’ve got guests we’re lining up to talk about spunding, and loggers. Anyway, stay tuned for the BrewDeck podcast. Follow us on Instagram, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. That’s it for this week.