EPISODE S.4, E.20

Toby (00:09):
Morning Heather.

Heather (00:10):
Morning Toby.

Toby (00:11):
I’m excited-

Heather (00:15):
Because of them.

Toby (00:15):
I can hear. Yes.

Heather (00:15):
That’s the scoop.

Toby (00:16):
No, not because of the six cups of coffee that you’ve had.

Heather (00:18):
Oh, definitely.

Toby (00:18):
That’s pretty exciting too. But back to school, twofold because I got two kids and I love spending time with them in the summertime. But man, there’s like a weight off my shoulder when we finally got them back into school and it’s so quiet around here.

Heather (00:34):
You get to do that celebratory dance.

Toby (00:37):
Yes. It’s almost eerily quiet because there’s not anything going on. It’s kind of scary. What is? There’s no one screaming. No one yelling that they need something. Well, I take that back. Sometimes-

Heather (00:51):
I was going to say, I feel like you’ve got to have some people on your team that are yelling because they need something. I’ve met your team.

Toby (00:57):
Oh no. They love me so much. Well, now I’m happy to be on with you this morning to talk about back to school, not just with the kiddos, but the malting courses that we put on every year.

Heather (01:13):
They’re finally back. After a few years off, we finally came back with the Great Western Malt and Canada Malting malting courses.

Toby (01:22):
That’s right. We did have to take a couple of years off like the entire world did. But back in full force. The Great Western Malting Company, I attended that one. Then you attended the Canada Malting Company one, right?

Heather (01:38):
I did, yeah. That was just, well, two weeks ago.

Toby (01:42):
Yeah. What we’re doing on this episode is giving the listeners a recap and some interviews that we did with some of our guests and some planners within our organization and some other folks. If you haven’t been to one of these malting courses, they are back in full force. It’s something that we take a lot of pride in as an organization and they’re really, really cool. Hell, I thought I knew about malting, but it really shows attending the days how much little I know. Wait, did I say how much little. How much-

Heather (02:20):
How much little.

Toby (02:20):
… little.

Heather (02:20):
Toby does need to go back to school.

Toby (02:24):
Absolutely. We had a really good opportunity, you and I, both, to interview some of the attendees. I’m excited to have all the listeners as a recap. But for Great Western Malting, it was the week of June 12th. We did it up in… Well, we did the course actually in Salt Lake City, but we had the opportunity to go out to our malting facility in Pocatello, Idaho. Then also had the opportunity to take a bus out to our friends at Stoddard Farms who do some barley growing for us out there in Grace, Idaho. They were very gracious to host us and give us some barbecue. Then we spent, what, two or three days talking about everything from the world barley and malt markets, procurement, food and safety, sustainability, general infrastructure of malting, production analysis, COAs. I mean, it was really, really, really cool. I’m certain that you all dove into something similar, right?

Heather (03:36):
We definitely did. I’m actually super jealous because I have always wanted to go to the Great Western Malting facility in Pocatello. That’s on my wishlist of things to see. But yeah, we were in Calgary at the Canada Malting facility and much of the same stuff. We had maltsters come in and do presentations for everybody. We had presentations on grain handling in the brewhouse, making the switch over to silos, all that kind of information. We got to, of course, tour the facility. We got to tour the new adjunct facility, which is the first time that we’ve ever had the opportunity to have customers in and come and see it, which is really, really cool. We got to go out to our barley elevators. Shout-out to Ryan Dodd, our Director of Grain, for taking everybody out to see the fields, to see the elevators and all that. It was a really cool experience. And I’ve done this. This is my second time doing the malting course because I did get to attend back in 2019. I learn something new every single time.

Toby (04:38):
Yeah, the elevator’s cool and it’s a big plus for Canada Malting. Did you all do anything up at Banff? I mean, historically taking some people out there.

Heather (04:46):
Yes, I did not attend the Banff portion. A shout-out to Justine. Well, huge shout-out to Justine, who you’ll hear from both of us, because she organizes both of these courses. But she did take a bunch of our customers out to Banff for the weekend. They got to do a hike. They got to go see all that Banff is, which I know is a huge thing for people. They love it out there.

Toby (05:08):
Yeah, I miss that. I’ve been out to the CMC course and it’s been, what, five or six years, and that was really cool. But excited for the listeners. For the listeners out there, if you haven’t been to the course, reach out to somebody out here at Country Malt Group or Great Western Malting or CMC. We’d be happy to have you all next year as we put these things on. It’s exciting stuff. We have limited availability, limited space obviously, but we want to try to get as many people as we can to the learning opportunities. But I say, without further ado, let’s just dive right in. What do you say, Heather?

Heather (05:52):
I agree with you, Toby.

Toby (05:54):
Hello? Testing, testing. Okay, here we go. We are out here at the malting course that we put on several years. I think this is the second year we’ve done. It may be the third year here for Great Western Malting. But out here with a fine group of folks on our… God, is it already the second day? Third day.

Alyx Zeilstra (06:14):
Second.

Toby (06:15):
Second day. Tomorrow we’ll be taking a nice trip out to Pocatello to visit the malthouse, but we’ve got a great group of folks here. I’m sitting with two ladies that are here on scholarship, I believe, that came to our malting course here in Salt Lake City from the Pink Boots Society, right? Cool. I got Alyx Zeilstra and Elia Smith. Elia, let’s start with you. Just wanted to bring you in and put you in front of the microphone, learn a little bit more about how you got here. Tell us a little bit about yourself, how long you’ve been in the industry or plan to get in the industry and where you’re from. A little bit of background.

Elia Smith (06:53):
Thank you, Toby. Yes, I am originally from Mexico in the south part of Mexico. I’m a student at the UCSD brewing program. Also with an amazing opportunity of a scholarship called Brewing for Diversity. Applying for the scholarship was very special to me, and in a way is a continuation of what I’m already studying. To be in the industry, I feel this will prepare me to best represent my community in the brewing industry. It interests me to apply Pink Boots, San Diego, the Chapter. They announced the scholarship in one of our meetings, and then I went to the website and looked at the details. It was a question of do I have the right materials and education to be here? I’m very thankful that Great Western and Pink Boots gave me the trust to be here and represent the community. That’s the main reason.

Toby (08:12):
Awesome. It’s great to have you. Obviously we still got another day to go to actually visit the malthouse in Pocatello, but what’s some of the… I know there’s been a lot of data and info, we call it analysis paralysis out here, but there’s a lot of stuff that we’ve learned in the other room. What’s been one of the biggest or coolest thing that you’ve learned over the last couple of days?

Elia Smith (08:30):
My background is in analytical chemistry, so I’m already in the sciences. I’m a little bit of a nerd. The Certificate of Analysis from the perspective of the maltster, it was great information for me. I’m learning it in the brewer’s perspective, but that is a combination of both, I guess, methods of each perspective on each of the two parts of brewing. That is complimenting on my skills and the education for that. It’s given me an overall overview, what really I’m looking for on each area.

Toby (09:09):
Awesome. Well, that’s good. You and I had a chance to catch up over lunch and talk a little bit yesterday. I got to tell you, you’re one of the most interesting people I’ve ever met. You just got some really cool stories. If we had time, we could certainly talk about your story about the Rolling Stones that I just learned about. But I wanted to hear a little bit more briefly about your hobby and some of the stuff you’re doing at home specifically with pineapples.

Elia Smith (09:33):
Yes. In Mexico, south part of Mexico, we’re big in fermentation. It’s part of our culture. We see fermentation as not just a science and a way to respect nature. One of the drinks that is a traditional native drink of Mexico is called tepache and is fermenting the outside skin of pineapples. It’s low-ABV percentage of alcohol. But it has a couple of components that are good for health, including bromelain. It’s known for digestion, for inflammation. That component being part of my culture, I carry that to the United States. I apply it to my family. It’s something that I carry on as a cultural, as being a scientist. But fermentation is very special to me.

(10:31)
I am into mycology, so I grow mycelium to grow mushrooms. I make sour crepe, kimchi. I am experimenting on making cheese. All those elements is fermentation. One of the things that I dream about is to have a fermentation education, a place where everyone can just brew, learn something simple as bromelain in pineapple. But at the same time, honoring earth where all these items come from. What are the elements that transform these elements, which in this case are yeast, lactic acid, bacteria. And what it brings to us to benefit us.

Toby (11:17):
Very cool. I hope that you and your son get to meet Lars Ulrich, which is another cool story in itself, but a big Metallica fan, she is. Thanks Elia. Alyx, how are you?

Alyx Zeilstra (11:26):
I’m well. How are you?

Toby (11:28):
Oh, I need to give you the microphone. Sorry. Here you go. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Alyx Zeilstra (11:31):
Hi, my name’s Alyx. I’m from Calgary, Alberta. I’m part of the Canada Chapter. I’ve been in the brewing industry for about five years. I actually have a background in microbiology in the poultry agricultural industry, which a lot of people don’t really understand the changeover. But I basically got started in brewing by working in the lab at Village Brewing Calgary. I ran all of their QC QA programs. From that, I realized that I was very good at spreadsheets and organization, so I ended up taking over all their supply chain management and all of the procurement and our forecasting and all of our scheduling for production in brews. Through that is where I ended up getting more and more interested in malt. We have a couple local maltsters in Alberta. They’re very in the community and they’re all super wonderful people, honestly. They’ve definitely opened their doors over the years for us to be able to go see them.

(12:46)
That being said, it’s nothing on the same scale as the Canada Malting Group in Calgary. When I saw the scholarship appear on the Pink Boots website, I thought it would be a wonderful opportunity to really expand my knowledge. I did the IBD certificate a couple of years ago, but that was my first formal brewing education. I do have a science degree. But I think you feel the same way where it’s like when you’re an ambitious female in the industry, you are looking for every single opportunity to learn, every single opportunity that you can elevate your own understanding. Personally, being in the industry for five years, I really love to talk to people who have a greater understanding than me. But also you tend to meet people that maybe have a different understanding than you. Like I’ve met some amazing people here, people who are doing the little… The stock plots, is that what they’re called? The testing plots.

(13:49)
Someone explained to me what a combine was. You end up learning so much more than what you expect when you come to one of the things. I’ve loved all of the scientific technical knowledge, everything about the varietals and the weather patterns and how that’s going to affect your protein and everything like that. All of that’s been so valuable. But hearing everyone’s stories on top of that is something that I find that you don’t get outside of events like this. It’s such a blessing to hear what everyone has to say. Meeting everyone and seeing their different perspectives and why it matters to them as well. Because what I’m getting out of it is not the same as what someone else is getting out of it. You really just get that intersection of ideas. I think that covers it.

Toby (14:35):
Thank you. You did a fantastic job. We talked a little bit about Elia and some of her interesting stories. What do you got that’s interesting that the listeners might want to hear about? She’s just giving me this face. If you could see it, if I could film it, it’s just like this, what? Who’s this guy?

Alyx Zeilstra (14:55):
Something I really like to talk about is my dog.

Toby (14:58):
Oh, you do?

Alyx Zeilstra (14:58):
Yeah. Yeah. I have a little two-year-old dog and he’s the light of my life. I know that’s probably not very interesting for the brewing community, but I do love… We do a pints and pups calendar that they’ll do and they’ll fundraise for the local animal shelters and stuff like that, so that’s really cool. I do volunteer on a board for Pink Boots, and so that’s something interesting that I do outside of my role, I guess. I’m about to take on a new position as Environmental Health and Safety Manager at a different brewery in Calgary called Banded Peak. That’s a really exciting adventure I’m about to go into. Basically right now, my entire life is revolving around work and transitioning careers, which is why when you asked me that question, I was like, “Oh my goodness, what is life right now?”

(15:52)
I really like cooking. I’m not really very good at fermentation unlike Elia. I’ve tried to do kombucha before and I was so terrible at it that I actually turned my kombucha fermentation vessel into a perpetual terrarium to remind myself that I am really bad at finishing things sometimes. I’m very good at starting things and not finishing them. I guess just taking every day a step at a time and grateful to be here. I’m so excited to see the plant tomorrow because there’s so many microbreweries and there’s not a lot of macro breweries. Since I’m transitioning into a bigger brewery, I’m very excited to see this massive plant that we’re going to and see the Optisteep and everything like that.

Toby (16:42):
I think that’s one of the things too. I’ve had some conversations with some other folks here that it’s a rare opportunity that a lot of craft brewers specifically get to see a malting facility in that operation. Most of them just open a bag of malt and say, “Hey, I’m going to make my product.” They don’t really realize what happens in order to get that bag in their brewery for them to use to make an end product. So I’m excited for you all to see it and really happy that Pink Boots was able to support, which they always do. I know we’re heavily involved. I’m glad that you all could first of all apply and end up here. But I did take you all away from tasting some white dog in there. I will get you back just as soon as possible. But just real quick, was there something specific… We do the Hot Steep test with six different malts and then we’re doing some white dogs in there. Any comments, Elia, on some of the Steep testing? Any product that you thought, “Wow, this is pretty good stuff”?

Elia Smith (17:43):
Absolutely. It was definitely a different perspective because so far in my brain I am thinking a final product. How all the parameters, what that means. I never looked into what is the pre before the post. I thought it was delicious. I even told some people, “Hey, we can make popsicles out of this.” What kind of other options can we make it just to be accessible? Why? Because it’s very nutritious. That’s something that my brain is always like, “What kind of other application can come to this?” But tasting and learning using your nose and what is telling you in the back of your palette, using your anatomy to really connect with the product. That’s something that I have seen right here that is very special from the farmers, from everyone that touches, every downstream process of the whole beautiful transformation of nature. It is awesome.

(18:49)
Having a taste and smell and listening to what other colleagues are saying and participants and the students in here, it kind of wraps all together. Then it becomes culture itself, so the culture of malts. I’m very happy to be connected with you guys, especially the company. I read the mission statements, the history, and it all comes together at the end. We’re sitting here making new relationships, but all comes to this tasting of that beautiful barley grain. How it was extracted, its flavors for us to enjoy.

Toby (19:31):
Alyx, I think you had six little shooter shot glasses there lined up in front of you when I pulled you away, so I apologize about that.

Alyx Zeilstra (19:37):
No, that’s all good. I’ve learned in this experiment that I don’t like white dog. But that’s okay. I pressed it with a lot of water and you still get some nuance out of it. We’re both here on the Pink Boots Scholarship, and I just think it’s important to mention. Pink Boots is such a wonderful organization. If there’s anyone in the industry that’s questioning about whether or not they should join or whether or not they should get into it, don’t hesitate. Just do it. I have met more wonderful people through joining Pink Boots and going to our chapter events and our chapter volunteering than in most other aspects. There’s just some really supportive people in the organization. It’s very easy to join. You get a yearly membership. There are so many scholarships that are available to people. I don’t think that a lot of people realize that beyond being a networking thing, the primary goal of Pink Boots is to actually educate women.

(20:47)
In Canada, we also have a mission statement of including non-binary peoples as part of the brewing industry. Just giving someone that extra person to talk to or to connect with or to be like, “How do I negotiate something?” Or, “How do I go about making this recipe?” Just having that point of focus where you know you’re not going to get judged and then getting these wonderful education opportunities, which is their primary goal. On top of it, it’s so wonderful. I just want to give a bit of a shout-out to Pink Boots there. If you’re thinking of joining, just do it. Don’t question yourself.

Toby (21:25):
100%. That’s a great way to end it. I’ll let you all get back to it. Thanks again for joining us out here in Salt Lake and looking forward to the trip out tomorrow. We are joined by another three gentlemen here to talk a little bit more about the malting course out here in Salt Lake City for Great Western Malting. This is the first time I’ve been to the Great Western Malting course. I have been up to the one that we’re doing with our other family of brands in Canada Malting. On that one in Canada Malting, they typically do a trip up to Banff. I don’t know if you all been to Banff. It’s so gorgeous out there. But we do have the opportunity tomorrow to head out to Pocatello to visit what some people call the Starship Enterprise, which is the malthouse out there in Pocatello. We’ll all be getting on a bus tomorrow and making it happen.

(22:11)
But I peeled another three people away from the white spirits tasting in there. I apologize about having to do that, but we’ll get you back just as soon as possible. But I want to just pass around the mic here. Just tell me a little bit about yourself. We’ve got Sean Petersen over at Utah Brewers Co-op, right?

Sean Petersen (22:29):
Correct.

Toby (22:31):
Devon Vogt, Stone and JT Albright also over at Stone. Happy to have you all here. We’ll just start to my right here because you’re the closest. Devon, tell me a little bit about yourself. What brought you here. Then we’ll talk a little bit about what you learned while you’re out here.

Devon (John) Vogt (22:47):
Yeah, absolutely. I’ve been in the brewing industry for the last decade. Then I’ve been brewing personally for the last seven years while I’ve been in the industry. I’ve been to GABF. Won a gold medal in rye beer for Rye Dawn at Breakwater Brewing Company. After Breakwater came to Stone and have been at Stone for the last four years, starting off in the cellar and working my way to brewing supervisor. I’ve never actually gotten into the nitty-gritty of malt. A lot of the details and stuff coming from this course. I’m learning a lot more about what actually makes a specialty malt. What in the process of malting makes malt specifically a specialty malt versus a base malt, and how to read COAs. That’s a good skill that I now have because that’s always looked like a page with hieroglyphics on it, and you can’t really…

Toby (23:49):
It still does to me.

Devon (John) Vogt (23:49):
Yeah, it’s all percentages and degrees. So what are we doing here? Some of the stuff that we deal with on the brew house, for example, we have mechanical issues sometimes on our brewhouse. One lauter tun where we think that it has something to do mechanically, but then when we figure out that the mechanical issue isn’t it, where do we go next? Part of that troubleshooting as we’ve approached it thus far has been adjusting the mill. Now being able to read the Certificate of Analysis a little bit better, and looking at that, I know I can go and look at the beta-glucans. Make sure that, okay, is everything inspected there, and then we can adjust from that. Maybe make some mash adjustments and maybe add some disco buster or some other adjunct in order to help us get through that. I think moving forward and what I’ll be able to bring back to the brewhouse is a lot more troubleshooting ability.

Toby (24:41):
Yeah, for sure. You’re right about those COAs. I’ve been doing this for 12 years and sometimes I look at it and I get dizzy looking at them. But it is. People can look back… You can keep them categorized or cataloged and then look back in the last 12 months or so and look at your bruise, do your evaluations and figure out, “Hey, what do I need to tweak here? What do I need to tweak there?” When we integrate new crop years, a lot of things change. I think a lot of folks on the craft side especially don’t really realize that, “Hey, when we make that adjustment or that change over, you really got to take a look at the COAs because it’s completely new crop.” That’s all good stuff. One thing I did learn about you, Devon, is that you absolutely love playing video games, right?

Devon (John) Vogt (25:27):
I don’t know about that. It’s cheap entertainment. I spend 60 bucks on a game and I’m able to play it for two months. It’s like, what’s not to love about that?

Toby (25:39):
No, all good stuff. Cool. Sean Petersen, how you doing, man? I know this is the first time we’ve actually met. I think it’s cool that even folks that are local to Salt Lake here are able to join us. I’m glad you and Luke were able to come out as well. Absolutely, between, what, some 30 of us here we’ve definitely supported you all by pounding a bunch of your beers as well.

Sean Petersen (26:05):
Yeah, I would hope so. It’s been a lot of fun, honestly. A lot of similarities as far as the questions go with Devon. One opposite, I started home brewing a long time ago. I started home brewing when I was 19. I moved out to Colorado with a girl I was dating at the time. I didn’t know any 21 year olds, and so I figured out that you didn’t get carted buying malt and hops. I just started there and I never imagined that it would spiral into what I ended up wanting to do for a living. But I’m still pretty fresh in the brewing industry. I’ve only been in the brewing industry coming up on five years now. I mean, this has been super educational for me coming into this. Malt has been my weakest area of expertise.

(26:52)
I tend to get really excited about what hops and yeast can do. As a sour brewer malt was… I cut my teeth in mix culture fermentation. It’s important there, but it’s not as much in the forefront just because, I mean, you’re drying out so much of those sugars anyway. Switching over from a primarily sour and mixed culture-based brewery to the brewery we’re at now where we are not allowed to do any mixed culture. Our lab manager gets a little wincy if you mention Brettanomyces. It’s been really interesting. I’m just really excited again, just really learning how to decipher the nitty-gritty of the COAs and the changes that you can take back. I think everybody’s mills are all different, however many rollers you have on there. I think that’s going to be the funner part, taking what we’ve learned here and then actually applying it to our individual mills. I’m really excited for that. But it’s been a lot of fun. Really great to know everybody. You got a really, really fun group out here.

Toby (27:55):
You and I were talking briefly about some experimentation that you did specifically with Golden Promise. I was pretty interested to hear you chatting about what you did with it on a couple, what, like some sour beer applications in that. Curious to me, you mentioned malt is not really on the forefront of that style of beer, but tell me about your experience with the varietal of Golden Promise. Just curious and I think our listeners will be interested to hear as well.

Sean Petersen (28:24):
Yeah, absolutely. We were using Thomas Fawcett Golden Promise. Again, going back to the, we’re not allowed to bring bugs into the brewery thing. I did get approval to use some genetically engineered yeast where they’ve injected some plasmids into there so it can actually do some souring. It was really cool to see that because cutting my teeth at that sour brewery, I was always told how the malts are not important. Now I’m realizing maybe that might’ve been wanting to save a little bit more money than anything else. But Golden Promise has always been a favorite base malt of mine no matter what beer I’ve been brewing. I was really excited to do some experimentation with that on sours and the complexity comes through. That’s all I’m going to say. We could argue about it back and forth all day. But I genuinely think there’s some really cool complexity that I got out of that beer that I did not doing that same recipe with just regular base malts and stuff like that.

Toby (29:17):
Awesome. Next is JT Albright. I want to thank JT for giving me dart elbow if no one’s ever heard of that term. I think I just made that up. But he and I battled it out on the dartboard day one. He did beat me fair and square, but my elbow is terribly sore from that. JT, how you doing buddy?

JT Albright (29:38):
After a quick dip in the cryo chamber, I’m feeling totally fine now. It was a good competition. But for the quick on me, I’ve been at Stone for almost two, three years now. At Langunitas beforehand. Luckily found my way into beer after working at Fortune 100 corporations doing procurement either at the corporate office quality or working with different people on the factory floor. It is a much better place to work. I’ll have to say that.

(30:09)
Now what I’ve got out of this class is as I’ve learned through my time in procurement and in my role as the senior sourcing manager, if I don’t understand what I’m buying, I can’t buy it properly because then I waste a lot of time coming to the brewer saying, “Hey, can we use this malt versus that malt?” They’ll look at me and say, “Well, did you even compare the specs or the COA?” Now, instead of just sitting there nodding my head acting like I know what they’re talking about as I frantically Google, I at least have some information to go with it and kind of add to the conversation and recipe creation and anything else that goes with it.

Toby (30:42):
Well, I appreciate you all coming on real quickly and let me twist your arm to get on this, but thanks for coming out to the malting course and I look forward to spending some time on the bus out to Pocatello tomorrow and see what you all think about that big beast out there. Let’s go get us a beer. I got another special guest from the malting course out here in Salt Lake City, our hero at United Malt Group, specifically Country Malt Group. Well, Great Western Malting ends. You pretty much do it all. We love her because she is like all things CBC. She makes CBC. She makes the malting courses. She does all the work behind the scenes to make a lot of things work for us, specifically talking about the malting course here at Great Western. I think you’re already working on the malting course for CMC, what, in a month. I’ve got Justine Johnson. We call her JJ. How you doing?

Justine Johnson (31:36):
I’m good, thank you Toby.

Toby (31:38):
JJ sticks her neck out to get closer to the mic. I’ll hand it to you here in a second. Tell us a little bit about the malting courses and the history that we have as an organization putting these together. I went to one the Canada Malting put on probably six years ago. We had a little time off over COVID. But specifically about this one here in Salt Lake with Great Western Malting.

Justine Johnson (32:02):
Yeah, absolutely. The Canada Malting one has a long history, probably 25 years with a few hiatus here and there. Then we thought about the Great Western one. We first had it in 2019, so that was our inaugural one, really testing out the waters and seeing if we could make it work. Then obviously COVID, took a couple of years off and we’re back at it this year. The hope with having it in Salt Lake was to be able to travel to our malt plant and to some barley fields and to just get a really wholesome view of the malt in general. A lot of the brewers just received their end product or distillers receive that end product, and we want to take them to the barley fields to meet the farmers to really get that hands-on approach to where their malt is coming from and where their end product is coming from.

Toby (32:52):
Yeah, that’s one of the things that we’ve had conversations with a couple of people. A lot of brewers don’t really realize the time and energy and efforts it takes behind the scenes as opposed to just going over and ripping open a 55 pound bag and brewing with it. It is cool that we have the opportunity to bring some people out here and show them the fields, put foot on the ground, and then actually see the facility, which is a really kick-ass facility and very state-of-the-art there in Pocatello. I can only imagine, we talked about CBC and you start planning a year ahead of time and then you pepper in events like these, which are awesome. But tell me about some of the challenges that you face trying to put this together and some of the challenges during the event in the malting course.

Justine Johnson (33:43):
Yeah, absolutely. I would say this one’s a little harder for myself, being a Canadian, just trying to coordinate. I’ve never been to Salt Lake before, so trying to figure out where is a good place to eat? How’s the best way to get around? Where’s the best place to stay and host the meetings to be able to get to those barley fields? You also have to think about weather. I mean, can we walk to places? Is it going to be warm enough? Where can we sit? All those little pieces. Then when we’re at the course, it’s just making sure is everyone taking care of everyone. You don’t want anyone to feel left out because a lot of people are coming by themselves. So you just want to make sure that everyone’s getting introduced and then it really becomes second nature to everyone. You become super good friends at the end of it because you’re able to talk through either challenges or insights that you’ve seen at your own facility and then be able to take it back home and work together.

Toby (34:37):
I don’t know about you JJ, but I’m not the most technical person in the world. There was so much information and so much technical data in there, I was having a hard time keeping up. But you could see we’ve got a lot of people in that room that have a background in technical brewing, malting, et cetera. Their faces just lit up. But the likes of Jan Landry, Scott Garden and Bob McWilliam out here, really cool seeing those folks be able to share insights and expertise with the rest of the crew.

Justine Johnson (35:10):
Yeah, absolutely. It’s getting that wholesome group of everything that goes into how our plants run, how our plants are built, what keeps the food safe at the end of the day. I think one of the biggest things that I always take away from these courses is how much the weather affects everything. How the weather will affect the barley fields, whether it’s in the winter, in the summer. Is it dry? Is there enough water? I think a lot of people might underestimate that aspect of, that’ll affect the malt at the end of the day, it’ll affect the barley, it’ll affect how much barley we get too.

Toby (35:46):
Yeah, you’re right. Once that plant’s in the ground, it’s all up to Mother Nature. We heard some stories about, there’s been some hail recently and then people are looking at drought, but there’s absolutely nothing you can do other than just cross your fingers. There is a lot of unknowns on the malt side or the barley side. I think we’re going to see a pretty good crop this year. But I’m really looking forward to spending time with you and the rest of the crew that we have out here tomorrow on the bus trip out to Pocatello. I know you’re working on the CMC malting course. Tell me a little bit about that or the listeners about that and when that is.

Justine Johnson (36:28):
Yeah, so the CMC malting course we do in about the third week of August. The reason that we choose the dates that we do is based off of the barley growing times. Right now we’re nearing the end-ish of the winter barley in the Pocatello, Idaho area, and that’s why we’ve chosen around June. Then it’s a similar concept for the August malting course for Canada Malting. With that one, we go to the Calgary plant because it’s so close to… We’re 30 minutes an hour away from the barley fields. We’re 10 minutes away from the malt plant and all of that aspect. We really do try to focus around… I mean, it’s awful that half the stuff is in summer, so it’s a lot harder for brewers and distillers to get away from their facilities. But it really is to get that on-the-hand experience in those barley fields and really touch it. Sometimes, like you were saying, the hail will wipe out a crop and it almost brings you back to that’s a farmer’s entire livelihood that could be wiped out within five minutes.

Toby (37:28):
For sure. Well, again, I appreciate all that you do. On behalf of United Malt Group specifically Great Western Malting, CMC and Country Malt Group, you’re awesome. I appreciate you putting this together. Everybody’s having a great time. We look forward tomorrow.

Heather (37:44):
This week, me, Heather, your Western Canadian Sales Territory Manager is going to be coming to you live from the Canada Malting malting course in Calgary, Alberta. I’m actually joined with the brains, the beauty, the organizational skills, the everything behind the scenes of both of the malting courses at both Great Western and Canada Malting, Justine Johnson. Welcome, Justine.

Justine Johnson (38:10):
Hello, Heather. How are you?

Heather (38:12):
I am doing really good. I’m really, really excited for this week and everything that you’ve got planned. I wanted to touch base with you on what goes into putting together this malting course.

Justine Johnson (38:26):
There’s a lot of just organizing and planning where everyone’s going to be at what time. Where’s everyone going to eat? Is everyone going to have the notebooks, the course packs, the USBs, all of those little pieces to make sure that everyone gets the best educational experience and also to build relationships and friendships and industry knowledge and bonds that they might not get in their typical day-to-day operations.

Heather (38:58):
You mentioned the USB and the packets and stuff like that. I saw your little gift packets that you’ve got on the table. Can you just tell me what you give everybody when they come to the course?

Justine Johnson (39:07):
Yeah, so standard is a notebook and then also we print all the presentation packets out for everybody so that they can take notes along during the presentations. Then this year we also introduced this soap that we also gave out at CBC because we want to continue that sustainability talk about what we’re doing on our plants to be sustainable.

Heather (39:28):
We talked about the soap in our sustainability episode. This is the soap that’s being made from CO2 carbon capture at the plant here in Calgary. I’m really excited to get all these brewers and distillers, and we have some people from some other like craft maltsters, transloads. We have people from all over. I’m really excited to get them to the plant. Can you say a little bit of what they’re going to see when they’re there?

Justine Johnson (39:53):
Yeah. When we go to the plant date, we’re going to tour Calgary’s D-House, E-House, their MBR, which is again another sustainability aspect of Calgary where it’s our wastewater treatment plant. Then also where we receive barley. Our lab tour. This is the first year that people got to tour the new adjunct facility and also the bagging line to see that end result of a lot of these products.

Heather (40:20):
Yeah, that’s amazing. It’s a very well-rounded crash course in malting, and we get all the experts from Canada Malting coming in to do presentations for everybody. Can you drop some big names at Canada Malting that we’re going to be hearing from this week?

Justine Johnson (40:38):
Well, I mean, of course our MC, Kyran Flett. I like to go and tell him things that he’s going to be doing for the week.

Heather (40:46):
I also have grabbed him to do a bit of a recording later on this week too.

Justine Johnson (40:52):
That’s what you got to do. Then we also had presentations from our Director of Technical Services and Food Safety and Quality, Rich Joy, who is incredible at his biochemistry knowledge and all of that is next level. But he can really get granular for a lot of people. Then I had a lot of our process supervisors from the Calgary plant step up and help, Mike Dolman, Idris, Mac Remington. And then we also have the legend, that is, the Don Moore.

Heather (41:26):
Don Moore, yeah. Don Moore is going to be presenting on malt handling. Am I correct?

Justine Johnson (41:32):
You are correct. He is also going to be doing a wort sensory portion, which we’re going to do the wort sensory, and then we’re also going to go back and have some spirits tasting. So see where some of those worts go into the spirits and how they can affect everything before it gets aged.

Heather (41:49):
Well, I am very, very excited to dive into this week. I want to thank you ahead of time because I know it’s going to be amazing and a bit of a whirlwind, but it’s going to be fantastic. So let’s go.

Kyran Flett (42:00):
Hi, I’m Kyran and I’m a Director of International Sales here at United Malt.

Jonas Hurtig (42:05):
And I’m Jonas. I’m the Head Brewer at Cabin Brewing here in Calgary.

Heather (42:09):
And neither of you two are strangers to the podcast. You’ve actually both been on the podcast recently to discuss this topic. But Kyran, can you tell us where we’re hanging out today for the malting course?

Kyran Flett (42:20):
Yeah, well, this time when we’re talking about the adjunct facility, we’re actually right in the heart of it looking at the rev-tech as we speak.

Heather (42:28):
It’s pretty cool. Jonas?

Jonas Hurtig (42:29):
Yes.

Heather (42:30):
You were one of the very first brewers that got to work with our new oats that are coming out of this facility, but this is the first time you’ve got to see the facility. How cool is it?

Jonas Hurtig (42:40):
It’s super cool. It’s a lot smaller and more compact, and I guess the space has been used very efficiently. It’s so clean and new looking. It just looks like there’s some really, really cool technology in here.

Heather (42:55):
Yeah, it’s pretty awesome. We are going to be launching some of our new products shortly. Kyran, can you tell us a little bit about what’s be coming out of here?

Kyran Flett (43:04):
Well, Flaked Oats is our number one product out of this facility, and it’s been flying off the shelves. But the next three products we’re bringing to market are Flaked Wheat, Flaked Rye, and Flaked Barley, which we’re all really excited about.

Heather (43:16):
Are any of those exciting you?

Jonas Hurtig (43:18):
Yeah, I mean, we use mostly the Flaked Oats and Flaked Wheat as well. It’ll be nice to have a product that’s actually made and bagged in Calgary. Our brewery’s only a kilometer away.

Heather (43:32):
Yeah, right down the road, which is why you get to try the things out before everybody else gets to see them and you get to see the facility. I do want to just ask you, it’s your first time coming to malting course, any highlights, anything you’ve learned this week that’s been the best?

Jonas Hurtig (43:47):
Oh, there’s so many things. Just the tour of the D-House and the E-House, seeing 40 year old technology versus more recent technology. It’s very neat seeing how the process works. I think honestly, the highlight was probably the water treatment plant. One of the guys there put a drop of the water that would normally go to drain in the microscope and just like all of the microbes that are in there. It’s a whole little colony, whole planet of little microbes working to help make the water clean. It was very neat.

Heather (44:28):
Yeah, it is a really cool water treatment facility. We also did talk about it on our sustainability podcast, so everybody can go back and listen to that if they want to learn more about it. Awesome. Well, I’m going to let you guys all get back to your day. Thank you for popping by and chatting with us.

Kyran Flett (44:42):
Yeah, thanks Jonas for being our guinea pig on so many of these products.

Jonas Hurtig (44:45):
Oh, it’s been awesome. I appreciate it.

Heather (44:47):
All right. I am now joined by some very special guests, our Pink Boots Canada scholarship winners. So tell me who you are and where you’re from.

Lauren Holzschuh (44:57):
So I am Lauren Holzschuh. I work at Waterloo Brewing in Ontario. We are just recently acquired by Carlsberg Canada, so I guess I work for Carlsberg Canada as well. I’m the Quality Assurance Manager there.

Heather (45:10):
And who are you and where are you from?

Pam Bailey (45:12):
Hi, I am Pam Bailey. I am President of Dacotah Malt Limited, which is a small new craft malthouse opening in Elie, Manitoba.

Heather (45:23):
That’s amazing. And again, both Pink Boots Society of Canada members. Can you tell us a little bit about the process of applying for the scholarship for the Canada Malting malting course?

Lauren Holzschuh (45:37):
It actually was quite an easy process. It wasn’t a quick process, I will say. It does take some thought processing. You had write down what you want to say essentially in your essay. But pretty much the process includes writing an essay, potentially getting a letter of reference if that’s the route you want to go, which I would highly suggest doing that. But it really is just filling out a question of why do you want to go on this and why should they pick you and how are you going to pay it back? Just really going through the nitty-gritty of why.

Heather (46:14):
The why.

Lauren Holzschuh (46:17):
The why.

Heather (46:18):
And Pamela, where did you find out about the scholarship?

Pam Bailey (46:22):
I think I found out originally about the malting one from the actual newsletter and everything. So Pink Boots is really good for sending out a newsletter just before, not right before, so you’re not panicking, but about a week or two. It’s like, “Hey, by the way, here’s some sweet scholarships you can apply for this and this and that.” So they were really cool and I really appreciate that.

Heather (46:46):
And did you find the application process the same, like it was super difficult?

Pam Bailey (46:50):
It wasn’t super difficult. I know that a lot of people get scared when they see fill out this and fill out this and fill out that, but really you just focus on why am I doing this? I’m doing it for X, Y, Z, and I want to learn more. Or here’s why I think it will help me in my role in my business, or whatnot. It’s pretty straightforward and really if you just speak from your heart, I hate to say it, but it’s true. Just speak, this is what I want to do and this is why I want to do it. It just walks you through it. It does seem a bit long, but at the same time, it’s not nothing that’s not worth it.

Heather (47:29):
Awesome. So I want to talk a little bit about the Pay It Forward portion of the scholarship, which I don’t know if everybody’s super aware of. Can you tell me a little bit about the PIF program.

Pam Bailey (47:41):
The PIF program?

Lauren Holzschuh (47:42):
So essentially, once you get your scholarship, part of the scholarship is that obviously you have to Pay It Forward to women and non-binary folk in the fermentation industry. So that actually is a big part of your application, explaining what your plan is. A lot of thought goes into that, and I say a lot of thought because I’ve seen people do a really good Pay It Forward, and I’ve seen people do an okay job. Obviously I’m an overachiever, so I want to do the best.

(48:14)
My plan right now is to essentially do a huge pink day, a Pink Boots brew day and include a learning part of it. In Kitchener, Waterloo where I’m from, Pink Boots is not huge. It’s not petite. But it’s not as big as Toronto. So Toronto being an hour away, sometimes the events are just unattainable. I want to make sure that I make it attainable for the folks in Kitchener, Waterloo and really show them what I learned about malting. Because malting in Ontario is not really close to heart. It’s always done out west. So bringing out a little bit home I think is going to be awesome for our team.

Heather (48:54):
I also want to know because it’s really, really cool to have somebody else from the malting aspect of it. Because I think that not everybody realizes that Pink Boots isn’t just for women in non-binary beer. It is for all aspects of the fermentation industry. So I am a member and I work in malting and you’re a member and you work in malting. Is there anything really cool that you learned this week that you didn’t know before?

Pam Bailey (49:20):
Which part?

Heather (49:23):
So a lot of it.

Pam Bailey (49:24):
So a lot of it. So I think, well, one of my other jobs is that I’m also a grain farmer on the prairies. It was really neat to look at it because a lot of people think, “Oh, brewing and breweries, just beer,” and that’s all they think about. But there’s all these other pieces like malt, like hops, like all the adjuncts and everything like that. So that whole other side of it. Then from a farmer perspective, it’s really neat because I grow these grains and seeing what the end use is going to be. So seeing the whole supply chain is really neat. It’s really cool when we go see the fields and people are very excited about it. I’m like, “Yeah, this is my other nine to five.” But there’s been a lot I’ve learned. But I don’t know which one thing would be the best.

Heather (50:13):
All right. I’m going to let you both get back to it because I know we’ve got a super tight schedule for you today. But I do want to know any funny stories, any super fond memories from the week so far? You can say bingo.

Pam Bailey (50:26):
I was going to say Crockpot bingo, was probably Crockpot.

Heather (50:29):
Yeah, Crockpot.

Pam Bailey (50:30):
So there was a bingo thing going on at the bar and it was quite interesting because one of the prizes was a Crockpot. Personally my own Crockpot… I resonated with this because my Crockpot this last two weeks during harvest definitely needs to be replaced. So I was like, “Ooh, maybe I could get the Crockpot.”

Lauren Holzschuh (50:51):
Nobody won the Crockpot.

Pam Bailey (50:52):
I know. Nobody won the Crockpot. But also I understand it would’ve been a challenging thing to ship back to Winnipeg.

Heather (51:00):
Most likely. I think we might have to make bingo a regular thing at the malting course now because it did turn into a big fan favorite of a random bingo find.

Lauren Holzschuh (51:11):
I would say honestly, just the best part is that we hang out all day together and then we hang out all night together. The amount of people I’ve met in not just brewing, but in malting from Canada, from the US, from Japan, literally all over the world with different experiences. Even just Pam and I are on different spectrums of how we use malt. It’s been really interesting to get to know people, different aspects of the industry, and obviously bingo.

Heather (51:42):
Obviously. Awesome. Well thank you both. Thank you for applying. We’re really, really excited to have launched the scholarship this year. We look forward to other Pink Boots members joining us next year.

Lauren Holzschuh (51:58):
Yes.

Pam Bailey (51:58):
Thank you.

Lauren Holzschuh (51:58):
Thanks.

Toby (51:59):
That’s a wrap for this episode, Heather, Back to School. I certainly learned a lot.

Heather (52:03):
I definitely did as well.

Toby (52:05):
Yeah, very good. Appreciate all the ears for the episode this week. I think safety’s coming up. A big important topic that is near and dear to us. We’ve got a vast array of awesome guests joining us. So be on the lookout listeners in the next couple of weeks when we launch this thing.

Heather (52:23):
Yeah, we’ve had actually a lot of requests to do the episode on safety, so I’m really looking forward to people getting to hear this one.

Toby (52:30):
Yes. All right, well if you have not subscribed to our podcast yet, please do so wherever you can make that happen. And we look forward to you all joining us on the next one. Cheers. Bye Heather.

Heather (52:43):
Bye.