EPISODE S.6, E.12

[LIVE AT ADI 2025]

Heather Jerred (00:00:10):
Hey Brittany.

Brittany Drennan (00:00:11):
Hi Heather.

Heather Jerred (00:00:12):
We’re back.

Brittany Drennan (00:00:13):
Yeah, you made it back to Canada, because-

Heather Jerred (00:00:15):
We made it back safe and sound.

Brittany Drennan (00:00:18):
You came down here to Texas.

Heather Jerred (00:00:21):
We went to Texas. Well, you live in Texas. We went to San Antonio last week.

Brittany Drennan (00:00:25):
Came to visit. How was your experience as a whole? Oh, we have to tell the listeners that you did officially get to go to Buc-ees.

Heather Jerred (00:00:33):
I did officially get to go to Buc-ees. Oh my god, so much fun. I met the mascot. I got my picture taken with him.

Brittany Drennan (00:00:43):
You did?

Heather Jerred (00:00:45):
I had a brisket sandwich.

Brittany Drennan (00:00:47):
You did?

Heather Jerred (00:00:48):
It was a spectacular experience.

Brittany Drennan (00:00:52):
A road trip staple through Texas, for sure.

Heather Jerred (00:00:55):
Yeah, it was super fun. We had a great time. We attended ADI last week in San Antonio and it was super fun. We got to meet a lot of really cool people in the distilling industry across America. I feel very, very lucky that we got to attend. But something else that we did, we recorded some live podcasts when we were there.

Brittany Drennan (00:01:16):
We did and let me tell you, very entertaining.

Heather Jerred (00:01:21):
Very entertaining.

Brittany Drennan (00:01:22):
It is a long three days that conference, and we tasted a lot of things.

Heather Jerred (00:01:29):
That’s a lot of booze.

Brittany Drennan (00:01:31):
We had some technical difficulties.

Heather Jerred (00:01:34):
Yes.

Brittany Drennan (00:01:34):
Naturally.

Heather Jerred (00:01:36):
Of course we did. So, you will get a re-record of our interview with Rob Pinson, the Liquor Lawyer, because we had some technical difficulties, but Rob was gracious enough to jump on after the fact and re-record with us. So, we talked to Tim from Ranger Creek about a very special project that he did with us for the event. Erik Owens, the president of ADI, and as I mentioned Rob Pinson, the Liquor Lawyer. So, why don’t we just dive in and take a listen?

Brittany Drennan (00:02:03):
Let’s do it. We have two guests with us today, Geoff Fischer.

Geoff Fischer (00:02:09):
Hi.

Brittany Drennan (00:02:09):
Welcome back.

Geoff Fischer (00:02:10):
Thank you.

Brittany Drennan (00:02:11):
Been our guest star once or twice.

Geoff Fischer (00:02:13):
I love talking about whiskey.

Brittany Drennan (00:02:15):
Yeah, you do.

Heather Jerred (00:02:15):
You do.

Brittany Drennan (00:02:16):
Hey, we also have Tim here. Hi Tim.

Tim Crofton (00:02:18):
Tim. How’s it going guys?

Brittany Drennan (00:02:18):
Good. Do you want to tell us about yourself?

Tim Crofton (00:02:21):
I would like to.

Brittany Drennan (00:02:22):
And where you work, again, sorry about that.

Tim Crofton (00:02:24):
No worries.

Heather Jerred (00:02:25):
Round two.

Tim Crofton (00:02:26):
I work at Ranger Creek Brewing and Distilling right here in San Antonio, Texas, about nine miles away from where ADI is being held. We have been around for 14 years, it will be 15 years in December, and we pretty much primarily stick to the whiskey side of the business when it comes to spirits. We also have a beer side that’s been around for just as long, but we are bridging our gaps into some of the other spirit markets currently.

Heather Jerred (00:02:49):
So when they opened they were both distilling and brewing at the same. It didn’t come later?

Tim Crofton (00:02:54):
Yeah. We actually were the first people in Texas to apply to be a brewery and a distillery under the same LLC. We got approved and then after we got approved, the state decided to change the laws and actually said that they had to be separate, LLCs couldn’t use the same equipment. We got grandfathered in, because the state didn’t want to pay for us to separate our business-

Brittany Drennan (00:03:14):
That’s nice.

Tim Crofton (00:03:15):
… because we had already been operating for almost a year at that point. So, we are grandfathered in. We use the same equipment as our beer guys. We fight for the latter times sometimes. We definitely fight for water all the time.

Heather Jerred (00:03:27):
Yeah, I believe it.

Tim Crofton (00:03:29):
But it’s a good time. It helps create these relationships like with CMG, which definitely was born out of beer and then moved into the whiskey side of the house, and then we also get their beer knowledge because beer guys are pretty good at fermenting things.

Geoff Fischer (00:03:42):
So, how did you start distilling too?

Tim Crofton (00:03:46):
So, I was in the army for 14 years and the army has a program called the Skillbridge program, that’s DOD wide so all the branches can participate. It is a internship where the military will pay for us as transitioning services members to go out into the civilian marketplace and basically re-assimilate into a job. So, I applied to intern with Ranger Creek originally to do beer, and after being there for two weeks, their distiller they had working quit and they asked me if I wanted to learn how to distill and I said yes.

Brittany Drennan (00:04:15):
Nice.

Tim Crofton (00:04:16):
And five months later they offered me a job and I stuck around as an assistant distiller and have been there since.

Geoff Fischer (00:04:23):
Not to sidetrack, it’s a pretty cool program.

Heather Jerred (00:04:23):
Yeah, I was going to say.

Geoff Fischer (00:04:27):
You have some colleagues even at Ranger Creek that have gone through this program too as well, right?

Tim Crofton (00:04:28):
Yes. So, I was actually their second person to ever do the internship, but there was about a three-year gap in between us. Since I’ve done it, we’ve had six other people do the internship, including two that have been hired on. One is our head sales guy, one that’s now also an assistant distiller with me. And a couple others that got industry experience went on to start [inaudible 00:04:50] or be bartenders or do other things in the spirits industry, beer industry.

Heather Jerred (00:04:54):
So, Ranger Creek has to sign up for this?

Tim Crofton (00:04:57):
Yes.

Heather Jerred (00:04:57):
They register for it.

Tim Crofton (00:04:59):
Any business can sign up for it, they have to… You get vetted through the DOD, so they want to know how many employees you have, how long you’ve been a business, can you actually physically hire people? Do you actually have a working place, before they send service members there. Because once they release a service member, they’re part of that business for that internship period. But once they’re vetted through the DOD, they get put on a list and a service member can apply to any of them and get approved to go to through this program, the Skillbridge program, to any places pre-approved by the DOD.

Brittany Drennan (00:05:28):
We are sipping on some beverages here.

Heather Jerred (00:05:32):
Yeah. We should probably talk about them a little bit. So, Tim helped us do this really great program making a whole bunch of white dog with a bunch of our specialty malts to see how our specialty malts can affect the flavor in the spirit. Can you tell everybody listening what white dog is?

Tim Crofton (00:05:49):
I can. So, white dog is going to be basically unaged whiskey, so white whiskey that has not touched a barrel. That whiskey, we pick it from the cuts that we make off of still. So generally speaking, the hearts cut is the stuff that we want to put into a barrel. hearts is going to be your cleanest spirit with the best spirit characteristics, whether that be those fruit flavors you’re driving forward, some of the grain forward flavors that we get in single malts.

(00:06:16):
Above that we have our heads. Heads tends to smell and taste kind of like airplane glue or rubber concrete, a little bit more abrasive, takes paints off cars, it’s not necessarily something you want to ingest. And then below that we have tails, and tails tends to have a lot of fatty acids, amino acids and other compounds that aren’t really what we’re looking for when we’re aging spirits. Tends to smell like wet cardboard or sometimes wet dog to people depending on who it is. Used motor oil is what I tend to smell.

(00:06:45):
So, we try to avoid all those unfavorable flavors and try to pick the things that we want, and that’s that hearts cut right in the middle. And so, white dog is going to be that hearts cut usually brought down to somewhere around a hundred proof, that’s going to mellow it out off the still where it comes off at about 140 proof altogether.

Geoff Fischer (00:07:05):
So, you talked a little bit about the malts that we asked you to use and give a little thought on them.

Heather Jerred (00:07:11):
Working with them.

Tim Crofton (00:07:12):
Yeah, absolutely. So, the base for all six batches that I did for you guys was the-

Geoff Fischer (00:07:17):
Great Western.

Heather Jerred (00:07:17):
Non-GN.

Tim Crofton (00:07:18):
[inaudible 00:07:19] Western non… Yeah, non-

Geoff Fischer (00:07:21):
GN.

Tim Crofton (00:07:21):
… GN Distilleries Malt, yeah, it’s a little bit of mouthful.

Heather Jerred (00:07:25):
It’s a mouthful.

Tim Crofton (00:07:25):
But a great base malt and actually my first batch I did was a hundred percent of it. Really enjoyed that as a base malt. Think it has a lot of really good grain forward sweetness characteristics to it. Kind of like a oatmeal juice or grapes nuts is kind of what I get between the aroma and the flavor, which are great for a single malt. That’s exactly what I’m looking for.

(00:07:48):
After that, I got to use a couple different variations of it. We stuck to about 90% of that base malt and then 10% of the specialty malts.

Brittany Drennan (00:07:56):
Crystals.

Tim Crofton (00:07:57):
Including two crystals. So a 120 and a 150. 150 was super awesome. Love the residual sweetness that comes with that, love the mouth feel that came with it just on the white dog. So, as we age that I’m sure it’ll be even better-

Brittany Drennan (00:08:12):
[inaudible 00:08:14] chocolate. Pale chocolate.

Tim Crofton (00:08:14):
Then I got to use a pale chocolate, which was super killer. Tastes like Nesquik in a cup, if you over mix Nesquik in a cup. Very good chocolatey flavor.

Brittany Drennan (00:08:24):
It is delicious, yeah.

Geoff Fischer (00:08:24):
Interesting on that though, I think when we were talking last night that all the other ones you understood when you mashed the pale chocolate, you were fairly skeptical of it-

Brittany Drennan (00:08:34):
It smelt funny.

Geoff Fischer (00:08:35):
… potential at the time.

Tim Crofton (00:08:37):
Yes. Sometimes the grain does not smell like it tastes and when I was mashing that one, I was a little worried. Not my favorite aroma on the front end. Then I fermented it and it kept that same aroma, so I was a little worried, but as it came off the still it turns out it was awesome. Super chocolate forward, and even more important lending itself more to that milk chocolate, just like the name is pale chocolate, as compared to maybe a darker abrasive chocolate, which can lead into espresso side of things. So, a different take on the chocolate malt. I was really, really impressed with that.

Geoff Fischer (00:09:13):
What’d you think of the special Belgian malt?

Tim Crofton (00:09:16):
For me, out of the six I did that was my favorite, really just because it lended itself I think to the base malt so well. You get a lot of that stone fruit flavor off the white dog, which is always something I’m driving for when I make single malt. I can taste that grain sweetness. The mouth feel’s great, the aroma is great, and also my conversion on that special B was super high. Comparatively it converted very easily, it was very easy to use grain. It’s something that we have already looked into maybe making a special recipe for our whiskey club that we have at Ranger Creek.

Brittany Drennan (00:09:51):
Nice.

Tim Crofton (00:09:51):
To see how that ages and goes on to become a single malt.

Geoff Fischer (00:09:55):
What would you say any differences that you really noticed? Besides the obvious, right? Chocolate’s going to be chocolate or…

Tim Crofton (00:10:02):
Yeah, the obvious one’s chocolate’s chocolate. I will say I use a decent amount of crystal malt. The crystal 120, crystal 150 to me were a little bit different. That is a pretty high good crystal malt, high number crystal malt that I think really changes the game and the way I think about using crystal malt as a distiller for my single malt. So I was really into that, interested in how that’s going to play out. Really excited to see how that ages.

(00:10:27):
The pale chocolate. We do some chocolate malt stuff. We have a smoked single malt whiskey that we use mesquite smoke for at Ranger Creek, that I use chocolate malt for, but I use a more dark chocolate malt for and I’d be interested to see how my recipe changes using maybe some of the pale chocolate, bringing out a little bit more of a milk chocolate or brighter chocolate.

Geoff Fischer (00:10:45):
I definitely want to talk about your smoke.

Brittany Drennan (00:10:47):
Yeah, you make that smoke malt.

Geoff Fischer (00:10:50):
But I have one more question on the crystal malt. So, brewers would typically describe the C150 as having very burnt sugar, deep caramel, that type of flavor, right? That’s what they want to drive out of it. Would you say that’s the flavors that you would get in the distillate, or how does that change for a distiller? How would you describe the use of C150 in a distillate?

Tim Crofton (00:11:10):
Yeah, for me I think it drove some of that. I would call it burnt sugar. I would say like creme brulee, more like toasted sugar for me. I think that once we distill out the mash it tends to be a little less abrasive on the flavor that maybe beer guys are going to get from that straight flavor, distillation helps with some of that. In the white dog, for me, I get a really nice creaminess that I think comes from using crystal malts. The more crystal malts you use, the more light mouth feel, creaminess you get. You definitely get some residual sugar, because that’s always going to be there. That’s what the purpose of the crystal malt is. And then definitely lends itself to toasted sugar, toasted brown sugar, creme brulee, top of the banana fosters, that type of thing.

Geoff Fischer (00:11:52):
So you tend to like how it comes through in the darker colored crystals, right? The 150s, even the 120, compared to we had you do something with a little, like a C75.

Tim Crofton (00:12:01):
Yeah.

Geoff Fischer (00:12:01):
It’s more subtle I think.

Tim Crofton (00:12:03):
I think C60 is what I use probably most regularly in my everyday distilling, pretty run-of-the-mill, standard, mild crystal comparatively. So, using something that’s obviously a lot darker, I do like that flavor profile more, I think definitely on the aroma side for sure. As it ages out I’m confident that that will turn into that brown sugar, creme brulee flavor as things continue to age for us.

Geoff Fischer (00:12:31):
It impresses me with what distillers are doing with specialty malts and they’re finding homes for the different colors, for lack of a better word, the different intensities of the crystal malt, and how they’re utilizing those almost in this spice cabinet type of thing, what they’re trying to drive in whatever particular spirit.

Tim Crofton (00:12:49):
It’s definitely something we talked about yesterday as well. I’m interested in… That’s why when you guys approached me about this project, I was super stoked on it. I think that I’m young in the industry, only been distilling for three years, three and a half years, before that my knowledge was beer. So, learning this stuff, or seeing this stuff develop in the industry while I’m also developing in the industry is pretty cool. It seems like there’s not a huge… There wasn’t a huge place for it maybe 10 years ago, but as we continue on, more and more people are using specialty malts and driving flavors that it’s really interesting to hear their perspective on it and then to be able to partake and see some of that on my own as well.

Brittany Drennan (00:13:23):
Honestly, people have been loving it. They’ve been super impressed. I think just to go from the base spirit to seeing what each inclusion does and how it differs so drastically has been really cool to watch people [inaudible 00:13:39] with that, so.

Heather Jerred (00:13:39):
So, we touched a little bit on your mesquite smoke malt. Can you tell us a bit about that, because you make it yourself?

Tim Crofton (00:13:43):
We do. So, we actually have a 25-foot conics that we have welded a barbecue onto the back of and then created a little tube section so that we can cold smoke our grain. So we actually lay out our grain on screens and then run smoke for about four hours-

Heather Jerred (00:14:02):
That’s crazy.

Tim Crofton (00:14:02):
… and then trap it in that conics, so it sits in that smoke for about 18 hours and then the next day we pull it out and directly mash it, so there’s no lag time for us in the smoke to grain, which I think is a game-changer to how the smoke phenols come over in the spirit. Especially as it ages, you tend to lose smoke the older it gets, so you want a nice real heavy smoky phenolness on the front end, so that as it ages that smoke mellows out into something you want for the flavor profile.

Brittany Drennan (00:14:30):
How much volume are you putting in there?

Tim Crofton (00:14:32):
We smoke 40% of our grain for that mash, so around about 800 pounds each time. It’s a labor-intensive-

Brittany Drennan (00:14:44):
It sounds like it.

Tim Crofton (00:14:44):
… experience. It’s great to have interns for that exact purpose.

Heather Jerred (00:14:48):
Does it smell great around there on the day of?

Tim Crofton (00:14:48):
It does.

Brittany Drennan (00:14:50):
Does it get on your clothes?

Tim Crofton (00:14:53):
It also gets on my clothes. Yeah, I smell like I am 18, have been at the beach all day for a week afterwards and everything smells like barbecue around the distillery for about five days after we do it.

Brittany Drennan (00:15:03):
How often are you doing that then?

Tim Crofton (00:15:05):
Twice a year usually.

Brittany Drennan (00:15:06):
Twice a year, okay [inaudible 00:15:07].

Tim Crofton (00:15:06):
We run the single malts. Yeah, so it’s not too crazy. We run them in campaigns, so we’re not smoking grain while we’re making bourbon and then using the same equipment with the smoke. We try to keep the smoke to the smoke, and the non-smoke single malt to non-smoke single malt, and the bourbon to the bourbon, just to keep things clean, not cross those streams.

Geoff Fischer (00:15:25):
Having a smoked whiskey is pretty appropriate here in Texas, you mentioned the barbecue, right? The area’s famous for its barbecue and I think having a smoked whiskey is quite appropriate.

Brittany Drennan (00:15:36):
On brand.

Geoff Fischer (00:15:36):
Especially using a very Texas or Southwestern wood like Mesquite, right?

Tim Crofton (00:15:42):
Yeah. Thank you.

Geoff Fischer (00:15:43):
Just in the flavor.

Tim Crofton (00:15:44):
We joke all the time that it’s our answer to the Scottish peat smoked whiskies, that we want to have a Texas version of that. We’re not going to use peat, we’re from Texas and Texas does mesquite barbecue, so why not do mesquite whiskey?

Geoff Fischer (00:15:57):
So, what’s it like having ADI in your city?

Heather Jerred (00:16:01):
You can use your original answer.

Brittany Drennan (00:16:05):
Yeah, we asked you earlier [inaudible 00:16:05] and you had a spot-on answer.

Heather Jerred (00:16:05):
You had a good answer.

Tim Crofton (00:16:06):
It’s great, because I can get hammered and it’s only six minutes to get home.

Brittany Drennan (00:16:10):
Nice.

Heather Jerred (00:16:10):
Beautiful.

Tim Crofton (00:16:11):
It’s not bad. The distillery is literally 10 minutes away. I think actually nine minutes if you put it into Maps and my house is two miles closer than that, so living my best life with ADI here in town.

Brittany Drennan (00:16:24):
Your job doesn’t suck.

Tim Crofton (00:16:26):
It doesn’t suck, no. Also, it’s great for Texas. I love Texas whiskey, obviously. I’m a huge fan of it. Part of the Texas Whiskey Association, we totally try to build up our Texas whiskey community here. It’s a big deal to us. We’re very proud of what we’re doing.

(00:16:41):
I think it’s a great place to come highlight a really booming growing industry. There’s some big dogs out there, Scotland and Kentucky are never going to go away. They’re always going to be the kings, and we really look up to them and what they’ve done for many years to pave the way for somebody like us in Texas to come through, and not necessarily emulate but do our own thing and create [inaudible 00:17:03]-

Heather Jerred (00:17:01):
To make it your [inaudible 00:17:03].

Tim Crofton (00:17:02):
… our own regional expression of whiskey, which I think is what makes whiskey so unique and so much fun, is that regionally it’s so different everywhere you go.

(00:17:11):
And Texas obviously very biased, but Texas is killing it and I love that we get to bring people in from the industry and just really get to highlight what Texas is doing and show them our passion and what we’re here to do.

Brittany Drennan (00:17:23):
You mentioned yesterday that it’s a constant learning experience for everyone, right? Everyone’s constantly learning, even if you’ve been doing it for 30 years.

Tim Crofton (00:17:32):
Yeah, I, obviously being very much so the young guy in the industry most times that I walk around, love that the conversations I’m having are not always put in, pigeonholed in that going to get taught something section. Sometimes what I’m doing is new or cutting edge or different or an experience that they don’t have, and it’s really cool to have a really unique discourse about that and just hear the different whether motives or thoughts behind why we’re doing it that way, and why they would do it that way and what those differences are.

(00:18:00):
And I just always feel like while there are definitely some godfathers in this industry that are guys I look up to and they definitely teach me so much every time I speak to them, there’s also this really cool exchange of information every time we speak where it’s, “Hey man, you’re doing something weird.” Or, “You’re using weird wood.” Or, “You’re trying a different way of aging things.” Or whatever it is, and we all get to learn from that, and it’s just a really cool community here in Texas and honestly, I’ve got to spend some time in Kentucky really cool community. Just overall the whiskey community is very cool.

Geoff Fischer (00:18:32):
One of the interesting things you bring up, and you talk even about Scotland or Kentucky or now in Texas, and one of the things we talked extensively about last night of course is what’s going on in the barrel, the maturation. And as much science as we know about it, there’s a lot that we still don’t know. But you talk about the different climates for each one, right?

(00:18:51):
So the heat, the humidity, the changing of the seasons and how things are just different here in Texas, right? Texas is still different than Kentucky and Kentucky is different than Edinburgh or Islay, Scotland, in what they go through and how the spirit is maturing in there. So, I love the idea that there are communities or regions now, like Texas, that are developing whiskies that fit. They’re unique and different and I think a lot of it has to just do with the community and the climate and everything else that’s going on and the share of that.

Tim Crofton (00:19:27):
Yeah, I think we’ve always known that regionally and community or weather-wise definitely affects the way that whiskey develops flavor characteristic. I think as we move into hotter and more humid climates, we’re seeing that more abrasively expressed. I think Kentucky for a long time was one of the hotter, more humid places that it was being made, as compared to maybe Japan and Canada and Scotland and the UK, which all make great stuff, but it definitely isn’t getting as hot or as humid as it does in Kentucky. And then I think Texas is just a step up from that. We have really-

Brittany Drennan (00:20:03):
Wild temperature changes and swings. 24-hour swings.

Tim Crofton (00:20:04):
… pretty wild weather, yeah, where we can have freezing temperatures in the morning and 80 degree temperatures in the afternoon and then go back down to 40 degrees in the evening, which really just drives a lot of movement of that whiskey in the barrel. Some of those secret things we don’t know yet that we’re still trying to figure out what’s happening in the barrel, but we know there’s some chemical exchanges happening. We know that humidity, temperature, barometric pressure, air exchange, all that stuff matters, right? And Texas has a really unique expression of that. And so, I think our region’s doing something cool.

(00:20:33):
We’re leaning into what is good for Texas and good for Texas whiskey by embracing the fact that we have that weather as compared to trying to emulate maybe somewhere else.

Geoff Fischer (00:20:42):
And I think you make it clear, there are some larger Texas distilleries that might be known throughout the nation, and then of course there’s smaller ones, but that’s what you’re seeing. You’re seeing it develop. This is what Texas whiskey is developing into, and I think it’s something special that’s going on here in Texas. Obviously other states are doing the same, or regions are happening, but Texas being such a large area too, it has a way of developing its own thing.

(00:21:09):
So, it’s pretty exciting from the stuff I’ve had. I love traveling here and just enjoying the different whiskeys that are produced.

Tim Crofton (00:21:17):
Oh yeah. Keep coming back.

Geoff Fischer (00:21:19):
[inaudible 00:21:20] family.

Heather Jerred (00:21:19):
And the barbecue. Right?

Brittany Drennan (00:21:19):
And the barbecue.

Geoff Fischer (00:21:22):
It’s one of the few things in life that make it worth living.

Heather Jerred (00:21:23):
It’s true.

Tim Crofton (00:21:24):
It pairs well, right?

Brittany Drennan (00:21:25):
It does.

Heather Jerred (00:21:26):
Absolutely.

Geoff Fischer (00:21:27):
Cold beer, good whiskey and really well done barbecue, and I’m a pretty happy person.

Tim Crofton (00:21:31):
Yeah, it’s hard to beat that.

Heather Jerred (00:21:34):
All right, so now really tough question for you.

Tim Crofton (00:21:36):
Yes.

Heather Jerred (00:21:37):
If you could have one cocktail for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Tim Crofton (00:21:43):
Can I go with my original answer, do I have [inaudible 00:21:45] cocktail?

Brittany Drennan (00:21:45):
Yes. No, you can go.

Tim Crofton (00:21:46):
It would be neat whiskey with-

Brittany Drennan (00:21:49):
Okay, I’m going to stop you though. Is it whiskey? Is it bourbon? Is it scotch? Is it bourbon?

Tim Crofton (00:21:54):
whiskey. All whiskey.

Brittany Drennan (00:21:54):
Just whiskey. Any whiskey.

Tim Crofton (00:21:55):
The whole category, everything. I tend to be lean into ryes and American single malts are my favorites to drink, but I’m not here to discredit any of the category. I love bourbon from all over the place. I love scotch, I love American single malts, I love single Malts from Japan. I’m a nerd, I like it all. I just want to drink whiskey. So, whatever-

Brittany Drennan (00:22:22):
You said, neat.

Tim Crofton (00:22:22):
Neat.

Brittany Drennan (00:22:22):
No rock?

Tim Crofton (00:22:25):
With a rock on the table, melting in another glass where it can’t mess with my whiskey.

Brittany Drennan (00:22:31):
Do you cut a little drop of water in there? Or-

Tim Crofton (00:22:35):
If it’s raining outside.

Geoff Fischer (00:22:37):
One final take on that-

Heather Jerred (00:22:38):
Only by accident.

Geoff Fischer (00:22:39):
… do you prefer something stronger like a barrel-proof-

Brittany Drennan (00:22:42):
Oh, yeah, 100 proof?

Geoff Fischer (00:22:43):
… or you or are you like-

Tim Crofton (00:22:43):
That’s actually a great question. When I teach education, I talk about this a lot. It’s one of my favorite subjects. Proof matters so much for how we perceive flavor. I prefer both, and there are days where I want that barrel proof and I want the tannins and I want the heat and I want to feel that phenolic burn as it goes down my throat and get that nice hug in my chest, and there’s days that I want the lower expressions where I really can catch the nuance, especially in something like a single malt, where I can get that honeysuckle and pear or Asian pear. The stuff that’s really hard to find in that higher, more abrasive proof setting.

(00:23:19):
So, I would say that I tend to lean towards trusting the distiller or the sommelier or the blender who chose the proof that it’s at, believing that they chose that proof because it’s the best expression in that whiskey. So, if it is lower proof, it doesn’t bother me. I’m not chasing the high heat hazmat stuff.

Brittany Drennan (00:23:38):
Just have two.

Tim Crofton (00:23:39):
Yeah, I’ll just drink two. Yeah, exactly. But I do enjoy a nice strong, solid barrel proof, especially here in Texas. It’s kind of something we do-

Brittany Drennan (00:23:46):
Yeah, same.

Tim Crofton (00:23:46):
So we might as well lean into it.

Brittany Drennan (00:23:48):
I’m with you.

Tim Crofton (00:23:48):
Both have their place. From a tasting perspective, I tend to, I would say, stay at the proof that the producer decided to place it at.

Brittany Drennan (00:23:58):
I like that. They know what they’re doing.

Geoff Fischer (00:24:00):
Very cool.

Tim Crofton (00:24:01):
I know that was a very politically neutral answer, but that’s how I feel about it.

Geoff Fischer (00:24:05):
But it’s an honest one, and I would agree with you as well. Different ways you’ve had around the world, you trust the person that made it, that they’re trying to showcase the best of their craft.

Heather Jerred (00:24:15):
Yeah.

Brittany Drennan (00:24:16):
What about you, Geoff?

Geoff Fischer (00:24:19):
I’m going to be honest with you. I think that high proof malt whiskies, I agree with you, I think some of the nuances that have gone into the malt whiskey, it starts to detract when it’s hot, when it’s the burn going down, the hug as he mentions, I think it gets lost. And so, if I do have a higher proof malt whiskey, I have a tendency to add a little bit of water. And also I think it helps open up the aromatics for that.

(00:24:46):
Bourbons and ryes, I very much enjoy, maybe not barrel proof, but a slightly higher proof than let’s say 80, 100, 105, 110. I think quite enjoyable at that, because there’s something about the rye, or even if they’re making a wheated bourbon, that really comes through and you get that strong vanillin, American white oak flavor is really present and it becomes pleasant to me. It very much feels like strong bourbon and I enjoy that. So, I’m with him. I think it depends on what it is, but I’ve also had some great 80 and 90 proof bourbons that are amazing. So it’s not universal, but that would be my take.

Tim Crofton (00:25:31):
Can I ask a question? Does it change if you’re smoking a cigar with it?

Geoff Fischer (00:25:37):
It does, I think, in general. I do enjoy a cigar and whiskey, but if I really am trying to savor the whiskey, if I’m really wanting to taste it, I find the smoke can dull my mouth a little bit, so I lose a little bit there. But I love, truly I love anything smoked, so smoked whiskey, smoked beers, I love a cigar with all of that. I’ve chased smoked beer from around the world.

Tim Crofton (00:26:05):
Interesting to smoke and smoke, you do both.

Geoff Fischer (00:26:06):
I love it. Yeah. It works for me a bit, so-

Tim Crofton (00:26:09):
Very cool. Yeah, I tend to do the opposite. I tend to lean out of the smoked category if I’m smoking a cigar with it. And that’s where I tend to do lean into the higher proof stuff. I find that with a more abrasive cigar, I tend to like a more abrasive beverage and with a less abrasive cigar, I tend to [inaudible 00:26:26].

Brittany Drennan (00:26:26):
Have you tried the Joseph Magnus Cigar Blend-

Tim Crofton (00:26:30):
I have not.

Brittany Drennan (00:26:30):
… whiskey? Incredible. It’s my favorite whiskey in the world.

Tim Crofton (00:26:34):
I will have to give it a shot, but while we’re here-

Brittany Drennan (00:26:35):
It’s very hard to find.

Tim Crofton (00:26:36):
… I’ll give a shout out to Iron Root also has a cigar blend that is-

Brittany Drennan (00:26:39):
Nice.

Tim Crofton (00:26:40):
… probably one of my top five favorite things I’ve ever drank. It’s impossible to find, and they refuse to give me a bottle and I hope they listen to this-

Heather Jerred (00:26:48):
Calling out.

Tim Crofton (00:26:49):
… and feel super guilty, because I ask them almost every time I see them just in case. But it is very good also, yeah. Some of those cigar blends, especially a great blender who’s really leans into that cigar flavor and knows what they’re trying to match up that profile with could kill.

Brittany Drennan (00:27:05):
Yeah, a thousand percent.

Geoff Fischer (00:27:07):
I definitely think the role of the blender and whiskey cannot be understated. Some of those people are just incredible, their palates and to be able to create these different expressions is very cool. But I get down a rabbit hole on blending.

Tim Crofton (00:27:20):
Yeah, super insane sub-group of people.

Heather Jerred (00:27:23):
That might have to be a whole other episode.

Geoff Fischer (00:27:24):
It’s for sure, right.

Tim Crofton (00:27:25):
Well, if you need somebody to just fan girl on how cool blenders are, I’m here for you. Call me back for that one.

Geoff Fischer (00:27:30):
You got it, man, anytime.

Heather Jerred (00:27:32):
Thank you so much for joining us for the podcast. Thank you so much for undertaking this whole white dog project.

Tim Crofton (00:27:36):
Absolutely.

Heather Jerred (00:27:36):
We know it wasn’t a small feat and the feedback we’ve had is amazing.

Tim Crofton (00:27:40):
No, it’s super awesome. Thank you guys for bringing it to me and letting me do that and just be part of your guys’s experience here at ADI, and thanks for letting me come talk to you guys on the podcast.

Brittany Drennan (00:27:47):
[inaudible 00:27:49] Thanks for doing it, man.

Tim Crofton (00:27:47):
I enjoy it.

Brittany Drennan (00:27:47):
Appreciate you.

Heather Jerred (00:27:50):
Well, I think we all need to go get a drink.

Brittany Drennan (00:27:52):
Yeah, let’s do it.

Heather Jerred (00:27:53):
Awesome.

Brittany Drennan (00:27:54):
Bye guys.

Geoff Fischer (00:27:55):
Thank you again, Tim.

Tim Crofton (00:27:55):
Yeah. Thank you guys.

Geoff Fischer (00:27:55):
Pleasure.

Heather Jerred (00:27:57):
We are back day two at ADI in San Antonio, and we are now joined by Erik Owens, the president of ADI.

Erik Owens (00:28:04):
Hey, good morning.

Heather Jerred (00:28:05):
Welcome. Thank you for joining us today. We know you’re probably insanely busy.

Erik Owens (00:28:09):
Yes.

Heather Jerred (00:28:09):
Just one or two things on the go. This event has been amazing for all of us. We’ve just had such a great time and it’s just-

Erik Owens (00:28:17):
I was going to ask you, how’s the show going? How’s it?

Heather Jerred (00:28:19):
It’s been so good. Yeah, I think it’s my first time in ADI.

Brittany Drennan (00:28:23):
Mine too.

Heather Jerred (00:28:23):
Brittany’s as well. So, it’s the first time we’ve got to do this and it’s different than the beer ones we’re used to, but it’s been awesome. Yeah, we got to talk to a lot of really cool people.

Erik Owens (00:28:34):
I would love to get there someday to the craft brewers conference size, but yes, we’re working on it.

Geoff Fischer (00:28:37):
[inaudible 00:28:38].

Heather Jerred (00:28:38):
Yes. Got to start somewhere.

Erik Owens (00:28:41):
They use a little bit more malt over there than we do in the distilling industry.

Heather Jerred (00:28:45):
Just a little bit. But that’s it, we were talking to Ranger Creek yesterday and talking about the specialty malts and stuff, and that’s been really amazing. People have been really excited to try the spirits with the specialty malts in it. So, that’s been really cool.

Erik Owens (00:28:57):
Yeah. And that’s one of the questions I’ve been asking all the distillers here is when is American single malt going to break through? What is that brand that’s really going to bring it to the forefront? So, I don’t know. We’ll see.

(00:29:10):
John McKee at Headframe said he’s about to release a single ball at a $35 price point. He’s got a lot of [inaudible 00:29:20] barrel, very hopeful. So, looking forward to that.

Heather Jerred (00:29:21):
Yeah. Before we jump in, well… We’ve jumped in. Let’s just go. How long have you been with ADI?

Erik Owens (00:29:28):
Have been with ADI since 2016 and I’ve been the president slash vice-president since 2019.

Heather Jerred (00:29:34):
So how did you get into this?

Erik Owens (00:29:36):
Yeah, so I guess I should tell the whole story.

Heather Jerred (00:29:38):
Yeah.

Brittany Drennan (00:29:39):
Yeah. How does one get to be the president-

Heather Jerred (00:29:40):
President of ADI.

Brittany Drennan (00:29:41):
… of the distilling?

Erik Owens (00:29:43):
So my dad is Bill Owens and he’s been revolutionary in three industries, which is kind of hard to follow. He’s a world-famous photographer. He’s got museums in the Museum of Modern Art in San Francisco, New York.

Brittany Drennan (00:29:56):
Oh my goodness.

Erik Owens (00:29:57):
He’s has shows still in Europe. He did a little book called Suburbia, and it’s taking pictures of insides of people’s houses from the 1970s, it’s photo documentary.

Heather Jerred (00:30:09):
Fun.

Erik Owens (00:30:09):
So people doing yard work, people’s dirty dishes, just opening up their cabinets and taking pictures, and it really strikes… People see themselves in it, or it brings back all those memories. And then he went on to found Buffalo Bill’s Brewery in 1983, so he’s one of the grandfathers of the craft brewing industry.

(00:30:30):
So, there was Ken Grossman, there was Fritz Maytag, and then he started in ’83. So, he’s right up there with them. And he started a bunch of breweries, a couple of magazines, and then he sold all that stuff off and he was sitting around around 2000, and in 2003 he had the idea that distilling was going to do what brewing had done. He were right next to St. George, St. George was founded the same year as Buffalo Bill’s in 1983. So, he was familiar with distilling and craft distilling at that time. And he got in his car, he drove across the country and there was 25 craft distillers in the country at that time, and 20 years later there was 2,500 craft distillers. So-

Heather Jerred (00:31:19):
He was right.

Erik Owens (00:31:20):
He was right.

Brittany Drennan (00:31:20):
I was going to say, how many are there now?

Erik Owens (00:31:24):
I pulled the… 2,800 is the number that we have, and that’s active craft distillers that aren’t copackers or-

Brittany Drennan (00:31:32):
Okay.

Erik Owens (00:31:33):
… those sorts of things.

Heather Jerred (00:31:35):
That have a brand.

Brittany Drennan (00:31:35):
I was going to say, what is considered is craft?

Erik Owens (00:31:38):
Well, we have a definition of craft, which is below a 100,000 proof gallons per year, less than… Independently owned, which means a multinational corporation doesn’t own more than 25% of you, and that’s the two main definitions of it.

Brittany Drennan (00:31:56):
So, you have a roots in beer too? Your family?

Erik Owens (00:32:00):
Your family? Yeah, he was home brewing when I was a little kid.

Brittany Drennan (00:32:04):
Incredible.

Erik Owens (00:32:05):
So when I was 17 years old, I was actually brewing beer at Buffalo Bill’s Brewery, which you can’t do today, because you have to be 21 to learn to brew and start to go into that industry. But it was 1989 and the summer between high school and heading off to City College, I was brewing beer.

Brittany Drennan (00:32:26):
So, did you start at a different position in ADI and move up?

Erik Owens (00:32:31):
Yeah. So I studied biology and my main career has been in biotech and pharma. I used to manufacture drugs that were injectable drugs for people with… Betaseron, for people with multiple sclerosis. I worked a bunch of different jobs in that industry, and 2003 ADI started and it was just really him and one other person, a couple other people, real part-time job. There was only 25 craft distillers, it was a conference once a year.

(00:32:59):
By 2010 it really started to grow and gain momentum. So, I started going to the show. I can tell a slightly embarrassing story. So, my brother was involved in the early days and at some point in time he’s just like, “I’m never going back.” My dad will say one thing and do another thing. And so, he had written him off, and so I was a little hesitant to be part of the working with your dad has its own set of challenges.

Brittany Drennan (00:33:26):
Absolutely.

Erik Owens (00:33:29):
But by 2016, the industry was 1300, 1400, 1500 distillers. ADI had grown to four or five full-time employees and he was like, “Hey, why don’t you come over here and start working for us?” So that’s what I did. 2016 came over and started doing different things around the company and then by 2019, three years later, I was running the company.

Heather Jerred (00:33:51):
So how long has the conference been going on?

Erik Owens (00:33:54):
2004 was our first year.

Heather Jerred (00:33:56):
Oh wow. A long time.

Erik Owens (00:33:58):
Yeah.

Heather Jerred (00:33:58):
Yeah.

Erik Owens (00:33:59):
So 22 years.

Heather Jerred (00:34:00):
Oh, that’s amazing.

Erik Owens (00:34:01):
This is our 22nd annual conference.

Heather Jerred (00:34:07):
As the president of ADI, what are your goals through the year?

Erik Owens (00:34:08):
The main thing is to try to find benefits for craft distillers. People ask me what I enjoy about this and it’s to serve, or to provide value to craft distillers. Like we said, there’s 2,800 craft distillers, there’s the heritage, but when you look at that, 90% of them are probably below 10,000 proof gallons per year. So, the majority of them are very small. There’s a sort of a middle class which has been growing, the contract producers, the people that are making things for other brands like Southern, like Corning & Co, and they’ve moved into that mid-size range. Or a brand will grow and move above a 100,000 proof gallons per year, which is the goal. But those are maybe there’s three to 400 to 500 of those, and then there’s the heritage distilleries, which are making 750… It’s like a fire hose that’s running 24 hours a day. Your Brown-Formans, Buffalo Traces, all those sorts of things.

(00:35:16):
Working in this industry is so amazing because it’s the majority of them are small family-owned businesses, people who’ve put three to five million dollars of their own money into this dream to do what? To make spirits. There are artists that do not hang paintings on a wall. There are artists that produce these ephemeral experiences and unlock emotions in us all. That’s what I love so much about this industry. And yeah, it’s a bit of a hard balancing act, because the show’s been around for 22 years, and so when we talk about it, we’re like, “Oh, we should do more in marketing and sales and working with distributors.” And then last night I was at dinner and I was talking to a distiller who’s like, “Hey, I want more process stuff. I want more stuff about yeast. I want more stuff about these sorts of things.”

(00:36:08):
So, I said that the majority of distillers are small, but some of them are a 1000 gallons, some of them are 10,000 gallons and some of them are a 100,000 gallons, and they have much different need… The people who are doing above 10,000 gallons, they have a solid brand, they have solid branding, they’re working on sales, they’re working on marketing, they’re working on putting people out into liquor stores every year. And the people at a 1000 gallons are still trying to figure out their processes, trying to launch new brands. So, the show here is trying to provide value-

Heather Jerred (00:36:47):
For everybody.

Brittany Drennan (00:36:48):
[inaudible 00:36:48] bit to everyone.

Erik Owens (00:36:49):
[inaudible 00:36:49] can be difficult. Yeah.

Brittany Drennan (00:36:49):
Yeah.

Heather Jerred (00:36:50):
Absolutely.

Brittany Drennan (00:36:51):
That’s fair. It’s the same in beer too. Everyone has different needs. We hear a lot that there is a thirst for technical information. People want to learn as much as they can. And I think an environment like this, you’re surrounded by people, potential idols in the industry, and you want to learn as much as you can from people that are rich in knowledge.

Erik Owens (00:37:14):
Yeah. And I think that’s one of the big values of the show is there are distillers who’ve been here 12, 15, 18 years, and there’s distillers that have been here eight years, six years and they get to meet those people and ask them the questions and try to solve the problems that are most relevant to them.

Brittany Drennan (00:37:34):
Exactly.

Heather Jerred (00:37:34):
And I met some people that are still a twinkle in the eye of building their distillery, but they’re here to learn and to meet everybody. Yeah. So-

Erik Owens (00:37:43):
Yeah, absolutely

Heather Jerred (00:37:44):
… all stages.

Erik Owens (00:37:46):
Yeah. I think one of the interesting things there is in the olden days, they would just start distilleries, but now there’s actually a lot more options to launch a brand, to find a co-packer. And whether you’re starting at zero or you already have an idea for a label and branding and those things, there’s people here that can do those for you, or just make things for you. And yeah, there’s a lot of different options.

Heather Jerred (00:38:10):
Can you tell us a little bit about the state of the industry? Are we still growing? Talk a bit about the challenges that we’re seeing out there right now.

Erik Owens (00:38:19):
So on the keynote yesterday I mentioned 2024 numbers, and in 2024 we were down 1.1% in value, but up 1.1% in volume. I’d call that pretty flat.

Heather Jerred (00:38:33):
Yeah.

Erik Owens (00:38:34):
But it’s funny, because you’re looking at the major trends of all brands in America and a lot of those are High Noon moves a lot of volume, and it’s one of the number one growing brands out there. And so, it’s really more, when you’re looking at that, it’s more trends of the big multinational corporations, is when I walk around and talk to some distillers, some distillers are down, a lot more distillers are out of business, but I’m actually surprised there’s a lot of distillers that are flat and or still growing. And I think that’s the right people, the right place, the right business plan, the right branding, and can still manage to keep growing even in these turbulent times.

Brittany Drennan (00:39:19):
Like the special sauce.

Erik Owens (00:39:21):
And what is it? I don’t know.

Brittany Drennan (00:39:22):
Yeah. Nobody knows.

Erik Owens (00:39:24):
When you see it you know, but you know. Yes.

Brittany Drennan (00:39:27):
There’s a lot of talk right now, and it’s happening in beer too, where there’s a lot of discussion about just people drinking less in general. What are your thoughts on that?

Erik Owens (00:39:36):
Yeah, so we had Brian Krueger from Bump Williams Consulting, and he was talking a lot about those and he actually did provide survey data on that. And there are young people are drinking less and young people are switching to cannabis seltzers as alternatives, which they view as healthy. Yes, I guess, maybe? But the perception out there, I guess is more than what is reality.

(00:40:08):
Not that I hope people drink, but I do think drinking has been part of human culture for as long as-

Brittany Drennan (00:40:17):
Ever.

Erik Owens (00:40:17):
… we’ve been humans. You feel sexier when you drink. You feel less inhibited when you drink. You feel more social. And we are definitely in an epidemic of loneliness, and so many young people today are just sitting on their devices, isolating by themselves and going out to a bar and having a drink with friends is a counteraction to that, gives a lot of values. But yeah.

Brittany Drennan (00:40:44):
So that segues a little bit into the low ABV and non-alcoholic spirits or options, I guess, that are out there. What are you seeing in that space?

Erik Owens (00:40:57):
Yeah. I personally do not pay that much attention to it. I’ve gone out there, I’ve bought the non-alcoholic whiskeys and the non-alcoholic gins and taken them back to my house and made my non-alcoholic cocktails with them. But I’d rather just drink something else, personally.

Brittany Drennan (00:41:13):
Yeah.

Heather Jerred (00:41:13):
Whiskey.

Brittany Drennan (00:41:13):
Fair.

Erik Owens (00:41:15):
Whiskey or even just something else, or beer or wine [inaudible 00:41:19]-

Brittany Drennan (00:41:18):
You don’t have to over imbibe either. I think that you can have an appreciation for a spirit by knowing the work and everything that has gone into that, and then you can sip and enjoy. You don’t have to over imbibe. I think that’s something that isn’t really being discussed a lot too. You can have two to four ounces of a beverage and still have an appreciation for that.

Erik Owens (00:41:42):
Absolutely. Yeah, we were out a couple nights ago and it was getting late in the night and I didn’t want to drink more and they had a mocktail on the menu, so I’m like, I tried it for the first time, it was okay. I might try it again.

Heather Jerred (00:41:54):
[inaudible 00:41:54] I might just have a soda water instead.

Erik Owens (00:41:58):
Exactly. My go-to is like a soda water with some bitters, a couple dashes of bitters. It still gives you some flavor. I like drinking bubbly, fizzy things. So, yeah, that’s good for me.

Heather Jerred (00:42:08):
We’ll touch on tariffs. I know it’s kind of a hot topic. It’s always been a hot topic for us. Has that been something that’s been… You’ve seen a lot of pushback and a lot of frustrations with that sort of thing?

Erik Owens (00:42:20):
Oh, absolutely. So, Discus who’s here, has their Toasts Not Tariffs. And so, they’re constantly giving updates on the state of those and trying to push those back to zero for Europe. And yeah, to me it’s just so disheartening where it’s the name of it, I told them this too, is it’s Toasts Not Tariffs, but it should really be Manufacturing Not Tariffs because it’s a 15% tariff, but when those tariffs are going on raw materials, the spirits that come over here and get used to make spirits to go back there, then it’s really double taxation on their raw materials. And it’s really just destructive of… There’s the hope to grow manufacturing businesses in America, and I believe it’s doing exactly the opposite.

(00:43:16):
It’s these small, like we said, it’s these small mom-and-pop companies that don’t have any other alternatives. They’re trying to make a small manufacturing business, and all of a sudden they have 30% more taxes on those things.

Brittany Drennan (00:43:30):
It’s hard enough to keep your business alive, in this economy.

Heather Jerred (00:43:34):
Absolutely. In this economy.

Brittany Drennan (00:43:37):
Like SBA loans I think interest rates are 10 to 12%, so it’s like, how are you even… We don’t need any more challenges.

Heather Jerred (00:43:46):
And when every aspect of your bottles, like your [inaudible 00:43:49] your raw ingredients, as you said, everything is blanket [inaudible 00:43:53].

Erik Owens (00:43:53):
Lids, closures, all that stuff, boxes. Yes.

Brittany Drennan (00:43:58):
So is part of your organization doing lobbying?

Erik Owens (00:44:01):
No.

Brittany Drennan (00:44:02):
Okay.

Erik Owens (00:44:03):
We are not a 501(c)(3), we are a privately owned business. So yeah, there’s Discus, there’s ACSA, Brewer’s Association does that for the brewers.

Brittany Drennan (00:44:12):
Right.

Erik Owens (00:44:12):
No, we do not engage in that. We’re really, we’ve always been the gathering place of distillers from the beginning and that’s the networking, the community, and that’s what we do best.

Heather Jerred (00:44:25):
Can you give us any hints on where this might be taking place next year?

Erik Owens (00:44:29):
I’d say we’re looking at Florida, but nothing has been signed yet.

Brittany Drennan (00:44:33):
I’m from Florida, so that makes me very happy. [inaudible 00:44:37]

Erik Owens (00:44:37):
Florida’s pretty strong, I believe. I forget how many distillers they have there, but yeah.

Heather Jerred (00:44:42):
Awesome. I think… Oh, one last question.

Brittany Drennan (00:44:44):
One last question.

Heather Jerred (00:44:45):
Do the last trivia question.

Brittany Drennan (00:44:47):
Oh, trivia?

Heather Jerred (00:44:48):
Well, no, the question.

Brittany Drennan (00:44:50):
Oh, I was like, what? Okay. Yeah. We’re dying to know, if you could have one cocktail for the rest of your life, what would that be? And it doesn’t have to be a cocktail. Our guest yesterday just said whiskey, which is totally fine.

Erik Owens (00:45:05):
Yeah. I am a awful bartender, I never garnish.

Brittany Drennan (00:45:08):
Me too.

Erik Owens (00:45:10):
Once a year I’ll throw a garnish on something, but I have three cocktails in me. I love the gin and tonic. I love a Manhattan and I love a Negroni. So-

Brittany Drennan (00:45:21):
Nice.

Heather Jerred (00:45:21):
All great cocktails.

Erik Owens (00:45:22):
Yeah, they’re the easy, just a little tonic, little thing.

Heather Jerred (00:45:26):
Classic.

Erik Owens (00:45:27):
Yeah, a little ice. The Manhattan-

Brittany Drennan (00:45:29):
A little spicier.

Erik Owens (00:45:32):
Never makes it in a shaker in my house, it’s always in glass. But yeah, the Negroni, I think the Negroni was my first love. And people get all crazy about whiskey, “Oh, this bottle of this and thousands of dollars for these.” And all these collectors and these casks things and their finishes. And I’m like, “Yeah, I like a gin and tonic too.” You guys can get all crazy about that stuff, but yeah.

Heather Jerred (00:45:57):
One of our directors where he sits, and obviously we’re all a lot of stuff, we’re all over the place, but his whole back wall is just whiskey and bourbon. Every time he’s on camera, I’m like, “Now, I’m thirsty. Shout out to Tyler.”

(00:46:12):
Well, awesome. We know you have a million things on the go, so thank you so much-

Erik Owens (00:46:15):
Thank you.

Heather Jerred (00:46:16):
… for coming and chatting with us and hopefully we will see you next year.

Erik Owens (00:46:21):
Awesome. Looking forward to it.

Brittany Drennan (00:46:23):
Thank you, Erik.

Erik Owens (00:46:23):
Thanks.

Heather Jerred (00:46:25):
All right, we are now joined by Rob Pinson and Rob, thank you for jumping back on and doing this recording again. I will openly admit to everybody listening we had some technical issues. I think we’re not millennial enough, and we’re not good at hitting record properly. So, we did interview Rob on the floor at ADI. Unfortunately it didn’t take, so we are going to do a redo, because we had a really great conversation with Rob when we were there.

(00:46:51):
Rob, can you introduce yourself to our listeners?

Rob Pinson (00:46:54):
Sure. Hello, I am Rob Pinson, Liquor Lawyer extraordinaire. I am a partner at Adams & Reese out of the Nashville office, but I can do federal liquor work anywhere in the country. So that’s why I go to places like ADI and ACSA and other conferences to just meet people and hawk my wares, I guess you could say.

Heather Jerred (00:47:15):
The Liquor Lawyer is a very interesting title. How did this come about for you? How did getting into this form of law come about for you?

Rob Pinson (00:47:24):
Everyone says this, but it’s really true for me, I not literally, but fell into it. I started off, I graduated law school, wasn’t getting great job offers, my grades weren’t the best, but they weren’t bad either. I got a three, five or something like that, which was pretty good, but the big firms wanted more, I guess.

(00:47:47):
I went back to law school to get my master’s of law and tax, so I became a tax attorney. So, I like to refer to myself now as a recovering tax attorney, because it is a bit of an affliction. Knowledge is power, so it was pretty good, but I was getting pigeonholed into tax work, not really getting into deals like I wanted to. Moved to Louisville for my first call it real lawyer job, and then tried to get back home to Nashville and used this headhunter who this other firm was also using the same headhunter. And so, she put us together, probably double charged us, and they were doing this thing called liquor licensing, and I had no idea what that was, but I said, “I want to get back home and I like to drink, so let’s go.”

(00:48:31):
Go I went, and started getting into it. It’s a lot of paperwork, almost like tax returns, so it was pretty close to what I was doing. But even then, after a few years, I realized it’s a lot like what I was used to doing, because a lot of the alcohol laws in this, federally and in each state, are really just a lot of statutes and regulations with very little case law. That was great. Really, actually, it was a lot easier to transition into. I didn’t really see that until a couple of years later. I’m like, “You know what? I’m doing the same stuff just in a different way.”

Heather Jerred (00:49:03):
So you are the lawyer for the Craft Distillers Guild, is that correct?

Rob Pinson (00:49:08):
Yeah, Tennessee Distillers Guild. I helped found it. I’ve been there since the beginning. If you go to their website, there’s this first picture, the first meeting, I was the one that took the picture. Someone had to be out of it, I was like-

Heather Jerred (00:49:22):
So they kicked the lawyer out?

Brittany Drennan (00:49:22):
Make the lawyer take-

Rob Pinson (00:49:25):
I kicked myself out because they’re all distillers. They belong in the picture, not me. Right? I’m fine to be in the background, just doing my thing, helping them succeed, let them be in the forefront. Just give me a free bottle or two or access to events every once in a while, right?

Brittany Drennan (00:49:43):
Obviously you helped Tennessee. You did say though you helped federally. So, if someone in another state is in need of legal advice in your realm, that’s a possibility and something you can assist with?

Rob Pinson (00:49:57):
Oh yeah, definitely. If there’s federal work that they need with the TTB, whether that be licensing, permitting, COLAs formulas, COLAs is label approvals. Or audits, I’ve helped with some audits and some contested cases. I had one client, they sent them a nasty grim saying, “Hey, we think you’ve been distilling without a license. We’re going to shut you down. And oh yeah, this even bigger winery that owns you, we’re going to shut it down too.” I helped negotiate that and do a settlement. That didn’t get publicized. So, if you do an offer and compromise, those have to be published, but this did not, so the client was able to stay off the media for that.

(00:50:40):
And it was during COVID, so that was weird. Because I thought we were going to meet in person, but then we did it… Then I was like, “Oh, it might be a conference call.” But then we used this thing called Zoom that I’d never heard of, that we’re on now and that everyone’s heard of, and three year olds are probably using, because of COVID. So, it was really weird. So anyway, that’s a slight sidetrack.

(00:51:05):
So anything federal I can do. State law is more restricted. I’m licensed only in Tennessee and Kentucky. I have people in my firm that do a few other states, but what I offer my clients is I’m part of a referral network of people in all the other states, so if I can’t do it and my firm can’t do it, then I have someone there that can do it for you. We have pretty much every state covered, except maybe the Dakotas. But I don’t think there are many people in the Dakotas anyway, so not really missing out on a lot of work there.

Brittany Drennan (00:51:40):
Well, state laws are so different from state to state, it’s to me very confusing and complex, because of our three tier system and stuff, at least on the beer side, makes everything just such a joy to deal with. So, I get that, not having the all state ability.

Rob Pinson (00:51:59):
Yeah, it is so different. What’s legal in one state might be prohibited in most others and vice versa. And so, you do have to pay attention and be careful, because what you may know as your world may not exist ones or several states over. And that actually, we were talking at ADI where I’d had slightly more alcohol then than I’d have now-

Brittany Drennan (00:52:29):
I was going to say we [inaudible 00:52:30] I think with a couple samples in our hand.

Rob Pinson (00:52:33):
Yeah. Samples provided by you all, which I greatly appreciate. Thank you. Let see, I’ve already lost track because I didn’t have enough alcohol this morning.

Brittany Drennan (00:52:42):
You didn’t put Baileys in your coffee?

Rob Pinson (00:52:44):
No, remember I don’t… I don’t know if we talked about this. I don’t do coffee, I do soft drinks.

Heather Jerred (00:52:48):
Oh, we did talk about that.

Rob Pinson (00:52:51):
It may be worse for me. Oh yeah, because you all asked me what are my favorite drinks, we’ll get into that in a minute.

Heather Jerred (00:52:55):
We’ll get there.

Rob Pinson (00:52:57):
Yeah. That was my presentation at ADI was, hey, multi-state licensing, the world that you know may not be the same, so be prepared, start early. Because you can have maybe a tap room or a tasting room in one state and that may have some type of retail licensing. Other states may not like that. There are states like Texas, California and New York that look beyond their state borders to see what you’re doing. And even Florida, to a little extent that I saw with one client. What’s legal in your home state may not be allowed in that state, and may even hurt you in your licensing in that state. So, you do have to be careful.

Heather Jerred (00:53:45):
So a big reason Chris, who is our rep down in your area, thought that we should talk, he said you had some really big insight into what the challenges craft distilleries are facing right now, some of the biggest challenges they’re facing in the US.

Rob Pinson (00:54:00):
Yeah. Tennessee is probably doing okay, but it’s the [inaudible 00:54:11]… Excuse me. Consumption of alcohol seems to be down. A lot of people like to say and kind of panic over, yeah, this Gen… Is it Z? I can’t remember, is it A [inaudible 00:54:23] gets, the Z-

Brittany Drennan (00:54:24):
The Alphas.

Rob Pinson (00:54:25):
I’m an X, so I’m way back there.

Brittany Drennan (00:54:28):
[inaudible 00:54:30].

Rob Pinson (00:54:30):
Yeah, the As can’t drink yet, so it’s the Zs. Everyone’s saying, “Oh no, drinking in Generation Z is down by half.” But you really need to look deep at the numbers because half of Gen Z still can’t drink, or a third of them, they’re still coming of age. And so, I think the data is still incomplete.

(00:54:52):
I did hear from one group at the latest Tennessee Distillers Guild meeting, it was I think someone with Nielsen, they had done some research and had tried to take into account that under 21 portion of the generation, and they said it’s still kind of down, but not as bad as you think. But the biggest trend they were seeing was people are drinking fewer drinks, but they’re going higher quality. So, instead of having three or four medium level drinks, they’re having two high level drinks.

Brittany Drennan (00:55:26):
Interesting.

Rob Pinson (00:55:26):
Which helps those that are making the high level drinks, but it’s still overall volume. Your overall volume will be down. So, I think brands probably will need to start focusing on, yeah, it might be a higher drink, let’s make sure we get a higher profit margin because there will be fewer drinks of it.

Brittany Drennan (00:55:44):
Well, do you feel like the people that are drinking less that turned 21 in and around the COVID era just weren’t going out and socializing, obviously, going out and sharing drinks with friends? Which was a big part of our twenties, but they didn’t physically have that. So, I think that maybe that’s where the data set is coming from. And then you’re right, the following generation will have hopefully more of a typical twenties experience.

Rob Pinson (00:56:21):
Yeah, COVID probably impacted that somewhat. I think with COVID I drank more.

Heather Jerred (00:56:29):
I was going to say.

Rob Pinson (00:56:32):
One, because I was like, “I don’t know if I’m going to have a job in two months, or what my job’s going to look like. The kids are at home all day, that’s another reason to drink.” What? Who said that? Yeah, just being stuck at home all the time, I guess. Here’s the spiel I give of my practice, the alcohol law practice is recession resistant, because in good times people drink, in bad times people still drink, they just change how they drink.

(00:57:03):
So, in COVID we saw people not going out, but they purchased more from liquor stores than they had before, or convenience stores or grocery stores or wherever. So, the source of where they got their alcohol changed, and we might be seeing that again with this alleged potential recession. I see conflicting information on that, so I’m not going to opine, but people are worried. I know lots of companies are cutting staff or pulling back expenses just to be safe, like we did with COVID. Tighten the belt in terms of budgets. And so yeah, maybe people aren’t going out again as much just because it’s expensive and they want a cheaper option of drinking at home.

(00:57:51):
So, I think that’s one of the issues facing distilleries. I think the other is, I’m not going to say tariffs, I’m going to say the uncertainty of tariffs, right? It’s 50% and then delayed and then 40%, but now it might all be illegal, and so they go away. It’s businesses like certainty, they like predictability, and the whole tariff situation, I’m not taking sides or being political, it is very turbulent right now. It’s hard for businesses to predict what it’s going to look like in two to three years. I think that’s part of the problem. With fun footnote, it came out late last week everyone’s drinking less, except Tennessee. We are year-over-year up 7%. We’re doing our part.

Heather Jerred (00:58:42):
Yeah, I was going to say, Tennessee’s doing their part. Come on.

Rob Pinson (00:58:44):
We’re doing our part. Come on. Other 49 states, keep up.

Brittany Drennan (00:58:49):
You mentioned the terrorists, but that’s something Heather you’re experiencing in real time in Canada, right? It had a true effect on y’all up there.

Heather Jerred (00:58:58):
Oh, 100%. I think the uncertainty for everybody, the uncertainty for businesses, we don’t know, it was changing every day. It’s consistently-

Rob Pinson (00:59:08):
It still is.

Heather Jerred (00:59:09):
… [inaudible 00:59:09] every day. It is. Canada just removed retaliatory tariffs on certain things. So yeah, it’s consistently changing. It’s hard for anybody to keep above water on that aspect of it because nobody knows. Very strange times.

(00:59:26):
All right, well, let’s get into the fun stuff. Let’s get rid of tariffs, we don’t want to talk about those anymore. As you mentioned, if you could have one, let’s say alcoholic beverage for the rest of your life and then we can jump into the non-alcoholic beverages, one alcoholic beverage for the rest of your life, you’re on a desert island, what is it going to be?

Rob Pinson (00:59:44):
I’m split on this one. It’s more like I want to… All right. I can’t do just one, but I can [inaudible 00:59:49].

Brittany Drennan (00:59:48):
I remember one of your answers and I hope [inaudible 00:59:52]-

Rob Pinson (00:59:52):
Yeah, it’s the same two still, it’s Old-Fashioned, a sweet Old-Fashioned, but also espresso martinis. A creamy one. Because remember previous comment about not drinking coffee, but I didn’t say I hated coffee ice cream or coffee flavored alcoholic beverages. So yeah, the Old-Fashioned would have to be maybe more of a coffee flavored item and not the actual espresso because that’s just too much like coffee.

Heather Jerred (01:00:19):
Fair. I think we had multiple espresso martinis after this interview because we found the one booth that had them on tap. Shout out to that booth, at ADI.

Rob Pinson (01:00:32):
I both wish I’d seen that one and also glad I didn’t.

Heather Jerred (01:00:36):
Yeah, honestly, they came over and they had gotten… They asked if they could have some hats, always come over and ask for hats, we have so many of them and we love seeing them out in the market. And then they’re like, “Well, come to our booth. We have espresso martinis on tap.” Yes, please.

Rob Pinson (01:00:53):
Oh my gosh, that’s crazy.

Brittany Drennan (01:00:54):
They [inaudible 01:00:54] the basic [inaudible 01:00:56] throw [inaudible 01:00:57]-

Heather Jerred (01:00:57):
Say less.

Brittany Drennan (01:00:58):
Yes, please.

Heather Jerred (01:01:02):
All right, and then you mentioned soda. Do you guys call it pop, or do you call it soda?

Rob Pinson (01:01:06):
Well, we actually call it Coke in Tennessee.

Brittany Drennan (01:01:09):
I was going to say, in the South we call it Coke, and that could be Sprite.

Rob Pinson (01:01:13):
Yeah, it’s Coke, but I’ll usually say soda out of respect for the other brands. I don’t like Pepsi. Tennessee’s Coke country. Fun fact, Coke is based out of Atlanta, but there’s a lot of families and a lot of people in the Chattanooga area, which is an hour and a half, two hours north of Atlanta, there’s a lot of Coke money in Chattanooga. And no, not the drug.

Brittany Drennan (01:01:38):
Yeah.

Rob Pinson (01:01:39):
But the soft drink, apparently there’s a huge bottler, but yeah, there’s Coke money in Chattanooga, so we’re Coke. So yeah, I only do diet, well, I have diet too, because I like the flavor and Diet Coke, but really I love Diet Dr. Pepper.

Brittany Drennan (01:01:54):
I’m down here in Dr. Pepper Country. Texas is where it was invented and my partner will tell you all about it if you give him the chance.

Rob Pinson (01:02:02):
I would like to hear that someday.

Heather Jerred (01:02:05):
I love Dr. Pepper. It’s probably one of my favorites if I’m going to have a pop.

Rob Pinson (01:02:10):
Yeah.

Heather Jerred (01:02:11):
I’ll go Dr. Pepper.

Brittany Drennan (01:02:11):
[inaudible 01:02:13].

Rob Pinson (01:02:13):
And what’s really fun is I saw an article online about, hey, if you’re really in a pinch for an Old-Fashioned, just a bourbon or a whiskey and Dr. Pepper, apparently the flavor notes with Dr. Pepper are actually really close to what you look for with an Old-Fashioned.

Heather Jerred (01:02:29):
I can see that.

Brittany Drennan (01:02:30):
That’s sacrilege for me. I-

Rob Pinson (01:02:32):
Well, I agree, but if you’re on a desert island-

Heather Jerred (01:02:35):
You got to do what you got to do.

Brittany Drennan (01:02:36):
[inaudible 01:02:36] doing that?

Heather Jerred (01:02:38):
Rob, thank you so much for jumping back on and redoing this interview with us. We really, really appreciate you taking time twice to talk to us.

Rob Pinson (01:02:46):
No problem.

Brittany Drennan (01:02:46):
I just wanted to say-

Rob Pinson (01:02:46):
Fun both times.

Brittany Drennan (01:02:50):
… I wish that the Liquor Lawyer and the Lincoln lawyer could have a collab whiskey.

Heather Jerred (01:02:58):
Actually you need to look into that.

Rob Pinson (01:03:03):
Yeah.

Brittany Drennan (01:03:07):
Thanks Rob.

Heather Jerred (01:03:07):
Thank you so much.

Rob Pinson (01:03:07):
Yeah, no problem. Thanks everyone.