EPISODE S.6, E.8

[WHEAT AND OTHER GOOD CHIT]

Toby (00:09):
What’s happening?

Heather (00:09):
Hi.

Brittany (00:10):
Hi.

Toby (00:10):
That was the most boring quick intro I think we’ve had so far. What’s happening? For those that don’t know, I’m Toby Tucker. I’m here with Brittany Drennan and Heather Jared. Sometimes the day deserves just a straight what’s happening, right?

Heather (00:25):
I think so.

Brittany (00:26):
That’s fair.

Toby (00:27):
What’s up?

Brittany (00:28):
I’m just getting back from mini vacay, so trying to get back into the swing of things.

Toby (00:35):
Nice. What’d you do?

Heather (00:36):
Yeah, your PTO looked fun.

Brittany (00:37):
Yes. I went to Montana and spent some time in Yellowstone and Big Sky.

Toby (00:43):
What?

Brittany (00:44):
Beautiful, beautiful country.

Toby (00:46):
Man, we’ve been talking about, my family’s been talking about going up there for years and never made it up.

Brittany (00:50):
Yeah, it’s awesome.

Toby (00:51):
I’m jealous.

Brittany (00:52):
Yeah, out of season, so not much was open. However, we did get to see all the bison, and we saw wolves and bears. Yeah, it was very, very cool. Highly recommend it.

Heather (01:06):
I Google mapped it. You were an eight hour drive from me. That’s the closest we’ve been.

Brittany (01:10):
No way.

Heather (01:11):
Yeah, well, because I was in Calgary, so you were just right below me.

Brittany (01:21):
You know what? Poutine was on the menu everywhere we went.

Toby (01:21):
Oh, no.

Heather (01:21):
Oh, God. Do you remember last time we were together and we ordered poutine? I was not okay with the way that it came out.

Toby (01:28):
Oh, Brittany, you didn’t try to pet any of the animals or the bison? Kids didn’t either, right?

Brittany (01:33):
No, absolutely not. We actually had a 10 person van, where we just flung the door open to take pictures. It was comical.

Toby (01:40):
I always run into these Facebook posts when you have tours that come in and try to take pictures right next to the wild animals, like the elk and stuff.

Brittany (01:49):
Oh, they were doing that for sure.

Toby (01:51):
What?

Brittany (01:51):
Oh, yeah, they were.

Heather (01:52):
Oh, my God.

Toby (01:52):
It’s not a zoo.

Brittany (01:55):
No, I know.

Heather (01:58):
Living in Alberta, we definitely had that a lot. We got that a lot in the Banff, Lake Louis, Jasper area.

Brittany (02:04):
There’s a lot of good beer up there too, by the way. Oh, and they love huckleberries. Huckleberries are in everything.

Toby (02:08):
Really?

Brittany (02:09):
Yeah.

Toby (02:09):
Interesting.

Brittany (02:09):
Yeah, I had a huckleberry martini. There was a huckleberry… What was the beer? I don’t know. Anyway, amazing.

Toby (02:22):
Were any of those beers called I’m Your Huckleberry?

Brittany (02:26):
I didn’t see it, but it has had to have been done, I’m sure.

Toby (02:33):
At times.

Brittany (02:34):
Cream Ale, that’s what it was, Huckleberry Cream Ale.

Toby (02:36):
Ooh.

Heather (02:37):
I think that’s from a brewery in Idaho. I’ve been there.

Brittany (02:40):
It might have been. I didn’t [inaudible 00:02:43].

Heather (02:43):
I’ve drank that beer before. It was really, really good.

Brittany (02:45):
That tracks. It was good.

Heather (02:47):
Yeah. That is Huckleberry region.

Toby (02:49):
Nice. Nice. Well, we are going to talk about chit and low color wheat from Great Western Malting. We’re just back from CBC. By the way, great times. Did y’all have fun?

Heather (03:04):
Always.

Brittany (03:05):
It’s always a good time.

Heather (03:06):
Yeah.

Brittany (03:07):
All our favorite people in one place? Can’t beat it.

Toby (03:11):
It takes a while to recover.

Brittany (03:12):
Yes.

Heather (03:13):
Oh, yes.

Toby (03:14):
Right. How many days? Three, four days to feel…

Heather (03:18):
I think I was a solid two of not talking to anybody and just like, vegging.

Brittany (03:26):
The good one about this was it ended on a weekend, right? When I got home, it was just straight couch veg, and no contact verbally with anyone.

Toby (03:37):
There you go. Yeah. Well, speaking of talking, we did do a lot out there, including our typical mini episodes. One was with Bart Watson, the president of the BA. Check it out if you haven’t. We’ve got a couple other ones that were very thorough and fun as well.

Heather (03:57):
Yeah. I will say, we interviewed the owners of Goodman House. They’re the ones that had our party. They were the brewery that hosted our party, and she gave me, emailed me a great list of dive bars to go to, and Brittany and I definitely did hit one up that night. It was fun. Thanks to Brittany.

Toby (04:19):
Good people out there.

Brittany (04:20):
Yeah, thanks for that. I also want to say, don’t forget if you won gold at the World Beer Conference with Great Western or Canada Malting base malts, this is the last week for you to request your custom Filson vests from us. Make sure you contact your sales rep for details. Deadline closes June 2nd.

Toby (04:42):
Those are cool vests. I keep saying that over and over, but yeah, if you’re not taking advantage of those, you certainly should.

Heather (04:47):
That’s silly. If you don’t want to take advantage of them, does somebody want to get me one? Just throwing it out there. As Toby said, we are going to be talking about low color wheat and chit malt today. While we were at CBC, we launched two new products from Great Western Malting, low color wheat and chit malt.

(05:08)
We’re going to be taking a deeper dive into these exciting new products. We’re going to chat with the Maltsters, the Malt Innovation Center, and just the team that kind of helped make these products a thing. Even a brewer who’s used it already.

Toby (05:24):
Yeah, we got a full house and I’m excited about it. Let’s just jump into it, what do you say?

Heather (05:29):
Let’s do it.

Toby (05:31):
We got a full house today, and I like it. It’s an exciting podcast episode, and I’m really thrilled to hear from this seasoned crew we have with us in our organization, specifically talking about two new products that Great Western Malting has launched, the low color wheat and the chit malt.

(05:53)
We have gathered all the strong arms in our organization, those that have had a lot of intimacy putting together these two products, as well as this crew has had a hand in a lot of the innovation that we do every day internally to really try to drive new products into market, and really be creative with trying to figure out what the brewers and distilling needs are by coming up with new products, and really spend most of their days really focusing on what they can come up with, and really try to put their heads together on launching new products to market.

(06:34)
Really excited to have this crew on to talk about the low color wheat and the chit malt. We’ve got really a full house here. We’ll just start with introductions, how’s that? Tyler, Tyler is a commercial sales director, one of them here in North America, but a background in malting, right, Tyler?

Tyler (06:51):
Very much so. From inception with the company way back in 2007, it was malting all the way through until sales became my new role, exciting role. Lots of experience malting in North America, but also some experience malting in the UK with our sister company, Baird’s Malt. Happy to be part of the podcast, and excited to share these new products, and maybe why we developed them, and some ins and outs of why you might want to use them.

Toby (07:27):
That’s right.

Tyler (07:27):
Pleasure to be here.

Toby (07:31):
Being there at the Vancouver home base, if you will, and being there at the malting facility, you’ve participated for a long time on Malt Sensory, right?

Tyler (07:42):
Yeah, yeah. A long, long time ago, we brought hot steep sensory and malt evaluation to the business, and it’s been a fun ride. Arguably the most exciting thing I do is R&D, so yeah, it’s a very robust program now, and we’re pumping out some really cool products.

Toby (08:08):
Awesome. Well, next up here, Mike Heinrich, who’s also joined on the podcast several times on some different subjects, but Mike’s been in a lot of different roles with our organization and it’s, hell, Mike, you’ve probably been around longer than I have.

Mike (08:26):
Maybe about the same time. I remember my first year and meeting you, so you might have a year on me, but excited to be here. Thank you for having me. My current role with the business is a director of operations, so I oversee all the Vancouver plant, and all the malting of our products released from this plant.

(08:45)
Previously, I’ve had operations roles, I’ve had commercial roles, I’ve had even roles within finance. Happy to be back in a malting space, and we’re having fun here with these new products from Vancouver.

Toby (08:58):
Damn right, we are. We also got Paul Bacon who… Well, I’ll let you say what you do, Paul. Pretty cool. Pretty cool.

Paul (09:06):
I’m relatively new to the organization. I’ve been here about three and a half years, and I work in the Malting Innovation Center in the Vancouver plant. We have a pilot malting unit and a pilot brewery as well. I run both of those.

Toby (09:23):
That’s great. Sounds like a lot of fun.

Paul (09:25):
As well as the sensory program.

Toby (09:27):
Yeah, it seems like one of those dreams for people that love beer, have a brewing background, being to mess around with that stuff all day.

Paul (09:34):
Yeah, it’s great.

Toby (09:35):
Nice. Then Abi. Hi, Abi.

Abi (09:39):
Hello. Thanks for having me.

Toby (09:41):
Abi’s a seasoned veteran on this thing as well, so the Ask Abi is always popular amongst our listeners. Glad to have you again, Abi.

Abi (09:50):
Thanks. Yeah, I was lucky enough to lead the development and innovations with these awesome folks for these new products, so pretty stoked to be here. I’m pretty stoked to have them out in market, and just see everything happening, so…

Toby (10:08):
Well, appreciate all you do. Brittany Drennan, Brittany’s a newcomer to the podcast team and will be joining on a regular basis.

Brittany (10:18):
Hello. Yes, I will. Very excited about that. Thank you.

Toby (10:20):
Yeah.

Heather (10:20):
We’re so excited to have you.

Toby (10:23):
That’s right. Well, for those listening who don’t know Brittany, tell us a little bit about what you do.

Brittany (10:30):
I am the South Central Territory Manager for Country Malt Group, so I am the main salesperson for our Texas, Oklahoma, and New Mexico states.

Toby (10:43):
That’s a big chunk of territory, a big chunk of land.

Brittany (10:46):
Yes.

Heather (10:47):
The baby state of Texas.

Toby (10:50):
That’s right. It’s funny, we talked about this too. People say, “Hey, how often do you get see Brittany? It’s just a short drive.” Well, no, it’s not a short drive. Albeit we’re in the same state, it’s a good three and a half hours.

Brittany (11:01):
No, and the entire state of Connecticut can fit inside the Houston loop, which is where I live as well.

Toby (11:09):
Oh, good times. Well, good to have you on.

Brittany (11:12):
Thanks.

Toby (11:13):
Heather Jared, as always, how are you?

Heather (11:15):
That’s me. I’m great, Toby. How are you doing?

Toby (11:18):
Good. How’s Canada?

Heather (11:21):
Well, it’s almost summer, so everything’s green. Yeah, I’d say it’s warm, but it’s Vancouver warm, so it’s raining.

Toby (11:31):
There you go. I think we’ve had Don Moore on before, and some people call him the Godfather. I would say that Heather’s like the Godmother out in Western Canada.

Heather (11:44):
I’ll take that. Thank you.

Toby (11:46):
Yeah, she sells a lot of malt and is really helpful in a lot of capacity in what we do at Country Malt Group, including what you do on food and beer tastings. That’s always fun.

Heather (12:01):
Oh, we haven’t got to do that in a while, but yes, it is, and thank you. That was really nice, Toby.

Toby (12:06):
Yeah. Cool. Well, good to have this team on, and really excited to talk about the subject at hand, which as I mentioned, was this low color wheat malt and chit malt from Great Western. How about someone give us a quick overview of those two new products and what sets them apart?

Abi (12:26):
Yeah, definitely. We’ve got low color wheat, which is a very lightly kilned wheat, and we saw some need out in market. We’ve got a lot of different ranges of beers that are being made right now, but one really popular ask from our customers is to have low color, something that’s offering contributions without affecting the color too much. That was where this low color wheat came from.

(12:53)
Then we’ve got chit, which is just an under-modified barley, and both of them impart kind of the same characteristics in body and foam retention, but the low color wheat offers just a little bit of flavor contribution and a tiny bit of color, whereas chit doesn’t, really. They’re two kind of similar products, but just really great domestic offerings for some solutions for problems that we were seeing from some of our customers.

Toby (13:23):
Perfect summary. Perfect summary.

Abi (13:26):
Thanks.

Toby (13:27):
To add a little bit of a teaser here, we are going to be chatting with a brewery up in Portland, Maine that has used the low color wheat. He’ll be able to give you a little bit more information about what he’s seen actually in the brewing process in the finished product. It’s very interesting, and looking forward to chatting with him. What sparked the idea for developing these malts?

Abi (13:54):
Again, we saw something in market that we really wanted to solve for our customers, and we had actually kind of a long list of ideas. Our sales team actually said that this was, low color wheat was one that was just super interesting, something that we had already played around with. I think in developing it, we just really wanted to go full for at finding something that was really light.

(14:22)
It’s like 1/6 to 1/8, less than two SRM, and we just really wanted to be able to produce something that would, again, solve that problem for our customers, giving that full body that’s smoothness and foam retention. As far as the chit malt, we just really wanted to have a domestic offering for chit malt, something that a lot of folks use, and so it was just a no-brainer in developing this with the production team that is incredible at Great Western.

Toby (14:57):
Yeah, absolutely. Let’s be real, we just want to keep Paul and that team busy up there. That’s what it is, just trying to toss a bunch of new ideas at him and see what they can do with it. Yeah, so we talked a little bit about some of the gaps in the brewing market, and what led to this creation, but I’m interested to know from idea to launch, how long did it take to bring these two to market?

Paul (15:21):
Well, okay, I don’t really have a good sense of what the timeline was. They just come to me one day and say, “We would like you to try to make this malt.”

Abi (15:33):
Yeah, I think we started-

Paul (15:35):
I don’t necessarily have the big picture all the time.

Abi (15:38):
Yeah, yeah. I think we started talking about this last fall around winter time, actually started the production. Mike, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think we started the production in January, and went from there, got it all bagged up, and we did the sensory and some trialing with the folks on his team, and then we launched it in May.

Tyler (16:05):
Yeah, I bet start to finish it, it’s probably about six to eight months, kind of IDing the fill of portfolio gap for our customers early on, mid-year last year, and then wrapping our heads around where we wanted to hit each of these products as far as specifications is concerned, and then delivering that on a silver platter to the Vancouver team, and letting them run wild, and make a product, and land on something that’s really quite usable by the consumer, customer, and a great, great place to be.

Brittany (16:46):
Is that a typical time frame, Tyler?

Tyler (16:49):
Yeah, I’d say this was a little bit more accelerated, generally speaking, than some of the other development processes. These aren’t, I wouldn’t call them really, really challenging malts to make. It’s a lot of controlling modification Mike will get into, and changing kind of kilning recipes. Yeah, I would say it was an accelerated process. There was a will and a want by us to provide this solution to customers, and it happened pretty fast.

Toby (17:27):
Yeah, I would say that I would assume with the build out and construction of the Innovation Center there, that’s helped to expedite historically what our timeline is to go to market with these ideas. You can produce these and start on very, very small scale, and then apply them on a lot larger scale in one of our malt houses.

Mike (17:51):
Yeah, that’s exactly right. That’s exactly right, Toby. We rely on what Paul’s doing in the Innovation Center to really inform how we need to scale this up for full commercial production. MIC is integral to getting these products launched timely and without mistakes.

Toby (18:07):
That’s right. If you start small and work, scale it up on a larger basis, you’re saving a lot of time and energy in making sure whatever you’re putting through on a large scale is going to come out fairly similar to what Paul and his team put together. That’s good.

(18:25)
Let’s start on the low color wheat side of things. Is there a difference in working on the low color wheat compared to, let’s say, a red or white? Is there a difference in this particular product or malting in general when it comes to a red or white wheat?

Mike (18:51):
Yeah, so red wheats are typically, they’re hard red wheats, and white wheats are typically soft white wheats. We use soft white wheat at Great Western Malting to produce both our wheat malt as well as this low color wheat malt. We had just had a ton of fun making this, because I’ll just start with Maltsters. Our job is to create consistency out of a wide variation of raw material that we see come in.

(19:18)
Barley is subject to growing conditions every year, and we as Maltsters have to take the variation that’s coming out of the field and create consistent, predictable products with it for our customers. This is fun, because we get to do something out of our normal lane, and really try to hit some targets to create these new products that are outside of the normal. We really grapple onto projects like this and have a lot of fun.

(19:44)
I’d say that what makes this really a low color product versus our regular white wheat malts is really what our targets are throughout the process. Starting from whether it’s steeping, germination, or kilning, there’s modifications to those recipes across the board versus a regular wheat malt. You can think of this almost like we’re making a Pilsen, but instead of utilizing a barley to make a Pilsen malt, we’re utilizing a wheat to make that Pilsen malt.

(20:15)
What that means is we can, as Tyler alluded to, we control modification. We control how advanced we let that malting process get. We restrict it is what we do with the Pilsen type product. That means we’re targeting a little lower steep out moisture. When we go to germination and we go to kilning, we have less activity within that kernel, and we control the amount of soluble protein that’s produced. We control a lot of aspects of that biochemical process that really is what malting is.

(20:49)
Ultimately, when this goes to kiln, we can apply a nice light, gentle temperature, bring our moisture levels down, not develop a ton of color, and really model this out very similar to what a Pilsen style would look like. We’re very excited about what that can contribute, and it sounds like with the brewing styles that are out there today, that this could be a really, really good fit for a lot of our customers. We’re seeing a lot of traction pick up quite quickly on it, which is great.

Toby (21:16):
Yeah, perfect fit. I just want to jump back to something real quick. I’m not sure that most of our listeners know the difference between a red and a wheat. You mentioned soft white versus the hard red, but when you say red and white, it’s not a color thing, right, Mike? It’s not one’s red in color, correct?

Mike (21:36):
A hard red wheat is a little darker in color. It’s not stark red by any means, but if you were looking at our-

Heather (21:42):
It looks a little pink though, doesn’t it? Maybe that’s just almost like placebo effect when somebody tells you it looks like something, but it looks a bit pinkish to me when I’ve seen it.

Mike (21:55):
If you had a pile of a soft white verse a hard red, you would be able to visually tell the difference.

Toby (22:00):
Okay, interesting. All right, thanks.

Heather (22:03):
Where is this wheat sourced from?

Mike (22:06):
All of our wheat is sourced from the Pacific Northwest just like our barley is. This wheat specifically, I believe is from the Palouse growing region area within Washington, just a few hours north of the malt house here in Vancouver, Washington.

Toby (22:22):
Oh, that’s great. That’s cool.

Tyler (22:26):
Yeah. I could add a little bit to this as well, when we’re talking hard red versus soft white. Generally speaking, hard reds hold higher protein content. They are stronger with gluten presence. Soft white’s opposite side of the spectrum: lower protein content, weaker gluten. Hard red wheat is generally used for food products, I would say, more than brewing needs.

(22:58)
Its robust and nutty flavor drives really great characteristics and breads and yeast leaven products, whereas soft white wheat, in our eyes, suits the bill more for a brewer, a milder, sweeter flavor. It works really well through the malt house. That’s a little bit of a differentiation there. Not talking about color and the name, but also the characteristics of each of those products and what they contribute.

Mike (23:27):
Just to build on that, Tyler, you’re exactly right. The protein content to make a low color product or really any type of low color or Pilsen product, Maltsters will preferentially select low protein raw material to produce that product. That’s because throughout the malting process, that protein that’s embedded within these grains gets solubilized. That’s part of the malting process. That soluble protein is one of the primary components when you go to kiln and start applying temperature to build color.

(24:00)
As Maltsters, we need to ensure that we’re always using the right raw material so that our process flows smoothly and makes a consistent high quality product for our customers. In this case, to make a low color Pilsen, we would absolutely want to use a soft white wheat versus a hard red just on protein content alone, to ensure that we’re hitting the right spec and getting the right performance out of the product.

Toby (24:23):
Every time we have Maltsters on or you guys, it makes me more thankful. I think I’m speaking on behalf of the brewing industry, especially the craft that they take a 55 pound bag or whatever, get a delivery, and really don’t have the opportunity to take a step back and hear exactly what takes place on the backend on the malting side.

(24:50)
Again, as you mentioned, Mike, it’s consistency and that’s the goal for a good Maltster is to make sure that when that bag or however they take that product gets into the brewery, that they’re going to have a product that is consistent and is everything they’re going to need to have that final product. I love talking to you guys and girls, because you do a lot on the backend that I think a lot of people are unaware of, so thank you for that.

Abi (25:19):
Yeah, that’s actually something I wanted to bring up too, is that at the very beginning of this, I got to go out to GWM and kind of follow everyone around and learn about the whole process. It was my first time being a part of leading development project, and so getting to go hang out with Paul, and Mike, and their team, and see everything that’s put into that.

(25:40)
I know a lot about malting and I’ve been in malt houses before, but getting to know everything from the very beginning, all the way to bagging it and getting out into market, it’s just so cool to see how this product is released, how much thought and how much analysis, and sensory, and everything goes into this that to produce just the best product. It’s so neat to see. Very grateful for that team.

Mike (26:06):
Absolutely.

Toby (26:08):
Let’s take a step back and talk about the chit malt. What exactly is chit malt, and how is it made? Very broad question, I know, but just anyone can fire off if they’d like to.

Mike (26:22):
Yeah, so chit malt is a highly under modified malt, relatively under modified malt. It’s made out of barley, and it’s interesting to me as a Maltster, because every malt that’s produced under the sun goes through the process of chitting. That is simply stated that chitting is what occurs typically up in the steep tanks of malt house. The chit, when you’re looking at a barley kernel, looks like a little white nub of growth on the distal end of each kernel.

(26:58)
What that white nub is is really a coleorhiza sheath, which is covering the first pair of forked rootlets, which is just hidden and protected underneath it. As Maltsters, that’s really a signal to us that we have achieved what our targets were in steeping, and that grain needs to get down into a germination vessel, because as soon as that coleorhiza sheath ruptures and the first two rootlets emerge, that grain’s respiration rate, i.e. its consumption of oxygen, its release of CO₂, its release of heat, normal malting process type things, we need more airflow.

(27:37)
That needs to be in a germination bed so that we can give the grain what it needs, so that it malts gently and ultimately, leads us to kiln with kind of the right profile, so we hit all of our quality parameters. What’s different about chit malt is that we’re kind of freezing that process. We’re really holding back on germination, so we’re getting that chit to appear up in the steep tanks. We’re bringing it down into a germination vessel just for a very kind of light kiss of germination.

(28:07)
Then it’s kilned very, very gently. It’s kilned gently so that we stabilize that package and bring our moisture content down, of course, so that you’ve got a shelf stable product with which can ship to breweries. We’re holding back that modification so that there’s a really rich package of insoluble protein and all those wonderful things that promote body, and mouth feel, and head retention in your beer. We’re not solubilizing all those proteins, which is what would happen if we were to, say, germinate that malt for four full days.

(28:41)
This is a malt that we’re steeping. We have a very controlled, restricted germination on, and then we kiln really gently for a very long time, so that we keep that color low, and stabilize that package for our brewers. That’s an interesting malt. I’d say every malt hits this step at some point in its process, but chit malt is isolated, and brought down, and really preserved as a package a little bit sooner than a normal seven-day malt would be.

Toby (29:10):
Okay, good. Well, you mentioned body, mouth feel, head retention, and I guess those are the qualities as a brewer in using a chit malt, but maybe this is a question for someone that’s a little more seasoned on the brewing side, but how should it be used? Is there a typical percentage in the grain bill, a particular style of beer that this would be used in?

Tyler (29:38):
Yeah, yeah, I could jump in here. From a brewer’s perspective, with these types of ingredients, chit malt, and we’ll bring Dextrin malt into the mix as well, there’s five, call it, four or five major aspects that these malts could contribute towards, like we said, foam and head retention, quite important, mouthfeel, flavor impact, haze potential, and then of course, fermentability, how much you could actually get out of it from a yield perspective on alcohol.

(30:16)
Chit malt targets beers that you want long-lasting head retention, I would say due to the intact proteins that exist that Mike just explained. From a mouthfeel perspective, it doesn’t build a full, creamy body, but more a silky body with a subtle touch, without any sweetness associated with it. It really does provide a different style of body than the dextrin malt does. From a flavor impact perspective, it’s super neutral, I would say. It’s when you don’t want the malt to interfere with everything else going on in the beer, you use chit malt.

(31:04)
It contributes a really kind of stable haze. A lot of times, chit malt are being used in things like hazy IPAs because of the different size proteins that can interact within the brewing process and fermenting process for a colloidally stable haze. Then from a fermentability perspective, we’re talking semi-fermentable. It will still contain some unconverted starches, so there will be some of that malt that won’t be able to convert to alcohol, but it does provide a little bit of a bump on the fermentability table as well.

(31:47)
This malt specifically was designed to target Pilsners, New England IPAs, sessionable beers. I would say on average, it’s used maybe two to 5%, but I’d say you can go as high as 10% in some scenarios, and that’s why we made it. With the haze craze out there and Pilsners on the rise, this is an excellent product that will provide some really great characteristics in brewers’ hands.

Heather (32:26):
That’s really awesome. Can we jump to Paul for a second? I want to hear a little bit more about what the research and development at the MIC was for these products.

Paul (32:37):
A lot of the research and development was just doing a couple small scale batches in our pilot malting unit. We can do typically from 100 to 300 pounds, so we can sort out the process. We can alter the parameters around steep, germination, and kilning, so we can play with all those knobs, and try to optimize the process on a small scale.

(33:08)
Then of course, we do a lot of sensory work as well. At the Vancouver site, we have a sensory panel of employee volunteers that we get together periodically, typically every two weeks or so. We’ll sit down and try some hot steeps, and evaluate them on 10 different flavor attributes. We also elicit comments from folks.

Brittany (33:36):
Any idea how many iterations you went through to get these malts just right?

Paul (33:42):
Well, for chit malt, as Mike alluded to, we make chit malt all the time. That one was pretty quick. I think I only did a couple batches. That was mostly just to finalize our targets. A part of that is getting the lab to take a look at them and analyze them, so that we get actual numbers that you might see on a COA, and also to dial in what the flavor should be.

Tyler (34:16):
Can I add that the flavor in hot steeps with chit malt isn’t the primary reason why you’re using that malt in the first place? It’s not necessarily an exciting malt to do hot steeps on, I’ll say, but nonetheless, it is important for us to know what potential flavor attributes that will come from it. That is absolutely a question that we should always have answers for when approaching a brewer. That sensory program in the MIC is really important, and Paul does a fantastic job there.

Brittany (34:58):
This is just a question that I have. How do we beta test new products like this, and how do customers “sign up” to be a tester? What does that process look like?

Abi (35:14):
We typically have our sales team sign folks up. We’ve got some preferred customers that have done trials before as well, but for these two products, they had the opportunity to send out some free product for customers and give feedback that way. We also had a few customers that we spent time with our digital creation team, and kind of just got some really great video and whatnot.

(35:46)
Yeah, just getting out there in market and having some folks, like Tyler talked about some customers that are really into making hazies, and targeting that, and just having them give it a try, give it a go before we bring it fully to market, just so we understand if the quality is there, if the color is what we wanted it to be, if brewers are reacting in the way that we were hoping. Yeah, we just give a month or two opportunity.

(36:14)
Then after we bring it to market, we allow some time too for those trials, and we just make sure that we get the feedback that we need in order to ensure that it’s a good quality product.

Toby (36:28):
I will say that our organization has just a wide, wide breadth globally as far as malting facilities, five of them here in North America. Really, there’s a big option. When we’re looking at new product innovations or new products, we have the ability in cases to find the right malt house to fit with the particular product that we want to bring to market, depending on a lot of different factors. For both the wheat, the low color wheat, and the chit, where were these produced, if we can share that?

Mike (37:08):
Both in the Vancouver Malt House, Vancouver, Washington.

Toby (37:12):
There we go. Nice. Nice. Real quickly, Mike, I’m kind of off-topic here, but I think this is important when I talk about locales of malting facilities, is there an advantage of doing, let’s say, highly kilned or high colored malt in one facility versus another that may be in a different location? I guess I could say, let’s say Pocatello versus Vancouver?

Mike (37:44):
Sure. Yeah. I think the way that a facility is really built and structured dictates what it will be good at, what its strengths will be. Some malt houses are very, very large with very large bins, very large kilns, and they’re very good at producing base malts, typically. When you have a site that needs to make a wide variety of products, say like 15, 20 different specialty products or more, it’s a totally different binning situation.

(38:15)
You’re talking about a lot more bins, potentially smaller bins so that you can have better throughput and make sure that the quality’s consistent. The site needs to be designed to support the products that it’s asked to make. Also, the way that the physical malt house or the germination and kiln vessels are designed are going to dictate whether or not you can even reach the temperatures that are required to produce certain types of malts.

(38:42)
For example, do you need to get your kiln up to 225 degrees so that you can reach a 30 or 40 color? Not every plant has that need based on the products that they’re asked to make. Certain sites are scoped to a potential temperature that that kiln can reach, and there’s no bang for their buck to overpower that kiln if they’re not going to be making those products.

(39:07)
We in Vancouver are uniquely positioned to make specialty malts, largely because of what temperatures our burners can achieve, as well as how some of our malt houses are designed in order to isolate air flows, so that I can be making a high colored Munich next to a low colored wheat, and I’m not exchanging or sharing air between those two beds, which would be really challenging.

(39:34)
That sharing of air would be more typical of a base malt production. It’s important that the site is set up well in order to make these different products and make them consistently. A very valid question.

Toby (39:48):
We talked about some styles that Tyler mentioned that, both the low color wheat and chit would be applicable for, and I know that these are two very new products to market. For this group here, have y’all had the opportunity to try a beer with either two of these products?

Heather (40:10):
Well, we all did at CBC.

Mike (40:15):
I can say that I live in the malt house, so I haven’t been fortunate enough yet, but I’m relying on all my esteemed colleagues here to maybe share a sample with me. All my sensory is warts or hot steep, so unfortunately, not…

Heather (40:26):
I’ll send you some of my…

Mike (40:27):
… fermented.

Heather (40:27):
… I was going to say. Tyler, do better.

Toby (40:33):
God, they keep you in a cage over there, Mike.

Tyler (40:33):
Yeah, I know, I know. I was just going to say that I know we’ve been moving quite a bit of it, and I hear from my team every day that both the chit and the low color wheat are just moving very, very fast out of the DCs. The feedback we’re getting initially is that people are really loving it.

Heather (40:54):
Good. Great. That’s great news.

Brittany (40:57):
I would say I have a customer using it for a double IPA, but the one that we tried in CBC was a New England style IPA.

Heather (41:08):
Yeah, I’ve got a customer trialing it for their white IPA right now too, so I’m really excited to get their feedback on it.

Abi (41:14):
Yeah, I’ve got a customer here in Minnesota too, using it for their hazy IPAs, they’re a definite haze IPA, that’s their thing. Sounds like it’s going well.

Heather (41:27):
We need to get somebody out there to get a wit with it. I would like to see that.

Abi (41:32):
Yes, I was thinking the same thing. Yeah. Yep.

Toby (41:34):
All right, first listener that can send everyone on this podcast a six-pack of wit, we’ve got a special prize coming your way. Don’t forget Mike, because Mike apparently has been-

Abi (41:46):
Exactly.

Toby (41:47):
… sheltered over there.

Abi (41:47):
Yeah, Mike first.

Brittany (41:47):
Yeah, Mike doesn’t get anything.

Mike (41:48):
I appreciate that.

Toby (41:51):
Him and his team are the ones that are making this malt, so come on. Good stuff. Well, any other tidbits or information that the team wants to add here around these two fantastic malts?

Tyler (42:05):
Go ahead and try them, Toby.

Toby (42:07):
That’s right.

Tyler (42:08):
A lot of effort has gone into building these malts up from infancy, and we’re excited to get them in the hands of brewers and really see what creativity and products can be made with them. We’re thrilled that they’re here, and we’re thrilled for anybody that wants to give them a whirl, and move them into the recipe development stage, and use them.

Abi (42:44):
Yeah, and if you use them, we have a product feedback form at the bottom of our website. You can scroll all the way down, and we’ve got a way that you can let us know how you felt about it, and it’s super valuable for our product team as well. Give it a go, and let us know what you think.

Tyler (43:03):
That’s right.

Mike (43:04):
I would just add that we’re really excited. I can say that my entire team is really excited to see what the market’s going to do with these new products, because as we’ve mentioned on this call now, a great deal of work goes into making these malts available for market. I got to tell you, it’s a point of pride for everyone on my team, not only to make good consistent quality malt for our customers, but to see what its next form takes is so immensely impactful.

(43:36)
It’s what we get satisfaction out of here in the plant. I can tell you, when a customer or partner makes good beer with a malt that we’ve made, we feel a part of that beer. We feel engaged with that customer, and it’s really a point of pride for us. I’m just excited to see what the market can do with this. Our country’s filled with brilliant brewers with tremendous skill sets, and we’re just looking forward to seeing what creations might come forth. Maybe hopefully, we get to try some at some point.

Toby (44:06):
Yep, absolutely. Just, again, to mention, this is not your first rodeo or our first rodeo on new products to market, so it’s not going to stop. It’s something that we’re continuously looking into. For those listeners who you see a potential gap in our portfolio, if you have a product that you might think would be something that the MIC and the team at Great Western, or even Canada Malting, for that matter, should look at, we’re happy to listen and take those to Paul and Mike and team, and see what they can do with them.

(44:45)
Yeah, reach out if you have any other ideas, or you want to share some feedback on the low color wheat and the chit, we would love to have your feedback.

Heather (44:52):
Yeah, please let us know.

Toby (44:54):
Yeah, so thanks again for Tyler for joining, Mike, and Paul for taking the time out of your day to come talk about these two awesome products. We will see where this stuff leads, and hopefully you’ll get some beer in the mail.

Mike (45:11):
That’s great. Thanks for having me, Toby.

Tyler (45:13):
Great.

Toby (45:14):
We have the pleasure of being joined by a couple folks. First of all, Patrick Sylvester, how are you, buddy?

Patrick (45:20):
Yes, sir, I’m doing well.

Toby (45:22):
Patrick’s been on several times over the past, I don’t know. We’ve been doing this six years.

Heather (45:30):
Six years.

Toby (45:30):
I know.

Patrick (45:32):
I’d imagine you guys are getting tired of me at this point.

Toby (45:36):
No, not yet.

Brittany (45:38):
Yeah. Oh, no. That was… Sorry. That wasn’t [inaudible 00:45:42].

Patrick (45:40):
Wait, wait, wait, wait. Back up, back up.

Toby (45:43):
Wait a minute. Yeah. Well, it’s always good to have you on, Patrick, and…

Patrick (45:48):
Thanks, happy to be here.

Toby (45:48):
It’s always good when you convince some people to come along with you. Really excited about your guest you brought with you. How about you intro?

Patrick (46:01):
Sure. Yeah, so we were fortunate enough, James was nice enough, but I have James Birdwell here from Definitive Brewing out of Portland. Definitive makes some killer IPAs, they have a kick-ass Kölsch too as well. James has been taking over the helm there for now, what was that, James? Like a year? Have you been there for a year? Year and a half?

James (46:20):
Not even a year, man. I took over in October.

Patrick (46:24):
Yeah. It’s been, well, it feels like we’ve known each other forever, bud. Super thrilled to have you on and giving some first takes on how the Great Western low-color wheat has performed for you guys so far.

Toby (46:37):
Yeah, no, it’s great, because it is new to our portfolio, and it’s just now getting peppered out into market. Having you jump on, James, as probably one of the first to actually get that product in hand and produce some beers with it, so really excited to chat with you.

James (46:57):
Excited to share.

Toby (46:59):
Yeah. You said Definitive since October, but tell us how you got into brewing, and how it all got started, and how it led you to where you are now.

James (47:12):
Typical story, home brewing with friends. Your friends tell you you make a beer, they tell you you should open a brewery. You do that, you do it for six years out in Texas, after working at some other breweries out there in Pedernales, helping out in some other smaller places out in West Texas that nobody in America’s heard of, because it’s West Texas. We opened our own place, and did that for six years, and then COVID, and life, and everything else happened.

(47:45)
We closed that down, and I moved out to Charleston, South Carolina, where I took over as head brewer at Two Blokes Brewing, and was there for about two years. Yeah, right at two years. Loved it there, loved the place, but Charleston is more expensive than Portland. We just wanted a little bit more out of where we lived, and we saw the job here up in Portland, and I applied, and Mike was like, “We’d love to have you up here.”

(48:18)
I jumped at this opportunity to get up here where there’s a little bit more outdoor activity, and get to do what I love to do. It’s kind of best of both worlds, but overall, probably been in the industry in one way or another, whether it’s in sales, or packaging line, or in the cellar for about a decade now. Yeah, that’s my short brief of how I made it to Definitive Brewing Company.

Patrick (48:47):
I’d make an argument that Portland, Maine is one of the top beer cities in all of the United States right now. It is a fantastic spot. I’m sure you’re loving it up there, James, right?

James (48:57):
Yeah. There’s not a lot of bad beer here. It’s hard to find one.

Patrick (49:03):
That’s true.

James (49:03):
We haven’t found one yet. It was pretty easy to fall in love with town when everywhere you go, there’s such support. There’s so much support for local beer here. It’s pretty wild. We ended up moving on a block where there’s four other breweries immediately next to you, all with super cool people working at them. It’s been really, really awesome getting involved in the community up here, and getting to see a little bit of all this beautiful state. We love it up here.

Toby (49:37):
All right, so I got a few things, James. You mentioned West Texas, that a small town, I might’ve mentioned or maybe I didn’t. I live in Texas, from Texas, so I probably know most towns you’re talking about in West Texas. I visited Pedernales many times, and y’all were buying some malt from us. Another question, and I may be wrong here, did you go to Hardin Simmons University?

James (50:03):
I did.

Toby (50:06):
I went there for a year. It’s crazy. Small world. Anyways.

James (50:11):
Yeah, I lived in Abilene, Texas.

Toby (50:13):
There you go. We’ll chat about it later. I had a year of playing some football in that fine town.

James (50:17):
Yeah, that fine, fine town.

Toby (50:24):
Yes. I did a lot of nothing. Tried to find stuff to do, but yeah. Anyways, I digress. We’ll talk about that later. What were your first impressions of the low color wheat, and how did it land on your radar there at the brewery?

James (50:40):
Patrick had popped in for a visit. I don’t remember what we were talking about, and he just kind of off the cuff mentioned that it was coming down the pipeline. I kind of earmarked that in my head, just because I always have been chasing the pretty hazy IPA. I feel like it’s getting easier and easier to make really good hazy IPAs, just because everybody’s got info and everybody, the hops are good, everything, all that’s easy.

(51:19)
There’s just something that really bugs me about an orange hazy IPA that’s sitting on a bar. I don’t know why, but when you use too much of that malted oat, it just gets this orangey, kind of murky hue. I’ve been chasing that brilliant yellow, kind of glowing looking hazy for a while. I’ve always just been making moves of how do I make my New England IPAs have all the flavor, and mouthfeel, and texture, and aroma, and everything that I want in that, while also sitting on a bar, and across the room thinking like, man, that’s a pretty beer?

Heather (52:08):
That’s funny, I know exactly what you were talking about when you said a pretty IPA. I know exactly that color that you’re aiming for.

James (52:15):
There’s just something about that brilliant, pale, glowing yellow that I really enjoy seeing it on a bar. When Patrick brought up the low colored wheat, I dog-eared it in my head until he eventually sent an email and was like, “Hey, this is ready.” I immediately ordered five or six bags. I was like, “I want to know what’s going on here.” That’s how it popped up on my radar was just Patrick, we had a good salesman.

Patrick (52:47):
Thanks for that, James. I’ll send you the $20 for saying that.

Heather (52:48):
He definitely paid you for that.

Patrick (52:48):
Just Venmoed you, buddy.

Toby (52:55):
There was a brief pause there when he said that it’s the good salesman.

Patrick (53:00):
No, I totally agree. I think the Great Western team absolutely knocked it out of the park. There’s so many folks that are chasing that brilliant yellow IPA. It’s amazing how our tolerance of, like you said, the sort of the orange hazy, it’s like, yeah, maybe in the winter, that’ll play well. For summertime drinking, I drink with my eyes first. If I see something that’s illuminating at the end of the bar, give me some of that.

James (53:29):
Yeah, especially on those beautiful sunny days, the way when it’s out on a patio, it just looks different. It’s just different.

Patrick (53:36):
100%.

Toby (53:42):
Tell us about the experience you had brewing with the low color wheat.

James (53:48):
We use a fair amount of it in our base hazy recipe, so I wasn’t too concerned, especially [inaudible 00:54:00]. Once I got into the bag and held it in my hands, “Oh, this is literally, this is just wheat. There’s nothing really to worry about.” We just straight hot swapped it for all the wheat that we were using already.

(54:15)
Then also pulled out the malted oats from our recipe as well and just swapped it with that. Immediately, once I started transferring over into the kettle, the liquid was immediately paler, was noticeable in the kettle already. From the get-go, you could see it definitely, definitely dropped the color of the beer a fair amount.

Patrick (54:42):
James, what percentage of your grist would you say you’re using on that?

James (54:50):
Of adjuncts, or just the low color?

Patrick (54:52):
Of just the low color, what was your usage on it?

James (54:55):
About 12%, I think.

Patrick (54:58):
Okay, nice. Not overbearing.

James (55:03):
Yeah, it’s definitely not a huge amount between, it’s probably about half of all the adjunct percentage.

Patrick (55:11):
That’s awesome. You were using Canada Malting white wheat prior, right? It was a direct swap for that?

James (55:17):
We were using Canada Malting red wheat.

Patrick (55:20):
Oh, that was a red wheat in that recipe. Okay, gotcha.

Toby (55:24):
Then did you say oat malt? You pulled that as well? Replace the red wheat and the oat malt in this particular beer with the low color wheat?

James (55:36):
That’s correct, yeah. I figured if I was going to see what it could do for the color of the liquid and actually get a feel for the malt, I might as well just swap it out and see what the perceived differences were. I didn’t really tell Mike or anyone. I was just like, “I’m just doing this.” Sometimes you just got to go for it.

Toby (56:05):
Oh, yeah, I hear you. Which particular beer was it? Was it like a staple in your lineup that you said, “Hey, I’m just going to give this a whirl with the local-“

James (56:15):
No, no, I’m not that bold. I’m bold, but I’m not that bold. It was just a one-off hazy. We’ve got kind of our standard hazy grist that we do for… Any hazy that comes through our pipeline is kind of like a base grain recipe. We don’t really skew from that too much unless the beer just calls for it. We had a one-off beer coming down the pipeline, spirals, and I just kind of straight swapped it. Then coming out the other end, we got excellent feedback in the tap room.

(57:03)
Once that happened, that’s when I was like, “Hey, Mike, I made the swap. Can I just make the swap for all of our hazies?” He was like, “Yeah,” and actually, he said, “Yeah, the beer tastes great, the beer looks great. Let’s keep moving forward with it.”

Toby (57:16):
Nice.

Heather (57:17):
Obviously, we’re seeing a change in the color of the beer. Did you notice anything else in terms of mouthfeel, or clarity, or anything like that?

James (57:27):
No. It performed exactly, like I said, a straight swap. Texture of the beer still stayed the same. There’s no mouthfeel change. We kept everything we wanted to keep the same, and changed what we wanted to change.

Toby (57:52):
That was just color change.

James (57:54):
Yeah, it was just a drop in the color of the beer. We’ve had, Paul, who drinks our IPAs every single day, he’s the guy who works here who will come up and like, “This is a good batch particles. This is a good one. This will hit this time,” and nothing. It’s just the perception of drinking the beer stayed the same. Just on the bar, it just looks better.

Patrick (58:30):
Nice. That’s a win. You got to love it when the regulars sign off on it and say you’ve done a good job. That was always a key takeaway for me. I was going to mention before on the mouthfeel stuff, I was looking at the COA of the batch that actually James brewed with, and the S to T ratio on it was down to 29, which is awesome for a wheat.

(58:48)
It’s just going to provide a ton of that body, a ton of that mouthfeel. The team at Great Western just did an amazing job of pushing it for modification, but just enough to get it done, and still leaving a lot of that weak characteristic behind so it’s not too thin or too under modified one way or the other.

Toby (59:13):
Yeah, good call. Absolutely.

James (59:15):
Speaking of modification and stuff, our numbers in the brew house didn’t change. Like I said, we did the same sort of recipe or the same sort of risk every single IPA for the most part, and we went straight across the board, the same numbers we hit it every single of time. Whenever you make little swaps like that, I get a little nervous about missing numbers a little bit, but nothing’s… Just performed just like we wanted it to.

Toby (59:48):
That’s great. This is one of those times I wish we had cameras, like a visual, so you could pour one of the beers and we could see what this color is.

Patrick (59:59):
Yeah.

Toby (59:59):
It sounds awesome

Patrick (01:00:00):
I’m coming to Portland in mid-June, and James, you got to save me a can of this for sure.

Heather (01:00:03):
Patrick’s-

James (01:00:08):
[inaudible 01:00:07]. Like I said, all our hazes are transitioning over. I don’t know if you saw the last [inaudible 01:00:11], we ordered, I think, 10 more bags, and I think our standard crowd is like 10 extra pils, 10 of that. Then it’s like that.

Patrick (01:00:17):
That’s awesome.

James (01:00:22):
All of our hazes are switching over to it.

Patrick (01:00:25):
I was fortunate enough to work with the product team. I ran some hot steeps at my house on this product prior to CBC, and the results even on that small scale were awesome. The turbidity that came out of it was gentle, but definitely present. That color was definitely transferred through. On a flavor note, I would say that the malt itself is actually relatively neutral, which is nice.

(01:00:51)
It’s great for building upon. James, I’m sure you probably felt the same way, or maybe have a different opinion, but it was just unanimous. It’s an awesome tool to have in the portfolio to work with.

James (01:01:05):
From the get go, once I saw it moving into the kettle, in my head I was like, “I really, really, really, really want to make a… I want to use a lot of it in one vehicle.” I want to push towards 60% of it, 60% of [inaudible 01:01:15] being that, and Pilsner making a wit, just to see what it comes out on the other end.

Patrick (01:01:24):
Yeah, somebody make a Hefeweizen with it or something like that and just have it absolutely glowing would be awesome.

Toby (01:01:33):
Yeah. I’m glad you liked it, James. It’s really, really awesome. We talked a little bit about hazies. Your website gives major love to your hazy Maine IPAs. I’ve never been to that area, sorry, I’m pent-up down here in a cage down in Texas. Just curious if you can paint us a picture of that scene up there, and especially coming from Texas, as it sounds like you did, right? Comparatively speaking.

James (01:02:13):
Yeah, it’s definitely way different than Texas, and it’s a lot different than Charleston. We moved here directly from Charleston, but it’s just partly wanting to make sure that we’re constantly trying to make our Hazy IPAs the best they can. It’s such like, it’s an aggressive market up here as far as hazes goes. It’s not just a couple breweries making good hazes. They’re all making good hazes.

(01:02:44)
To find little things to kind of hopefully give you an edge or a little, just something a little different to hopefully stand out that a customer might notice is worth trying, because you’re not the only person on the block literally making good hazes. We’re next door to Battery Steele and Foundation, and they’re both making killer hazes. Any little thing that you can do or try to set yourself apart is worth doing.

(01:03:17)
When Patrick mentioned low color wheat, I was like, “Okay, that’s worth a shot. It’s worth trying, and maybe it pays off for us on the end to give us a little bit more of a brilliant, pretty, glowing hazy.” Here, as opposed to Charleston, where there’s a couple breweries down there doing pretty good hazes, but the beer market down there’s just a lot more eclectic. While up here, it seems like tourists come here to drink hazy IPAs, and breweries cater to it because it’s a super touristy town.

Patrick (01:03:55):
I’d add onto that in saying that with IPAs, the flavor is so hop-derivative, and that the malt is inherently meant to sort of be in the back, although we’d like to admit it. Really, color is one of the few entities that you can play around with and differentiate yourself in the market, in the hazy IPA world. I’m glad you were able to give it a shot.

James (01:04:22):
Yeah, it’s definitely, like you said, one of the few things that you can change. When you’re dry hopping at the rates that we are, and every other brewery up here is doing, and when the glass hits the table, your nose, the aroma’s hops, the flavor’s hops. It’s all just hops, hops, hops. Any little thing that you can do to kind of boost yourself up just a little bit and set yourself apart is, like I said earlier, it’s worth it.

(01:04:57)
Beers in pictures on Untapped and beers and pictures on social media, it’s something different that you can do to hopefully catch the customer’s eye. Someone sees that picture and says, “Man, that’s a pretty beer.”

Patrick (01:05:12):
I’d even… Sorry, not to cut you off, James. You can go.

James (01:05:17):
Oh, no worries. When it comes down to it, and that’s the market, and we’re all making really good hazies, that’s just another little piece for a consumer seeing a picture of your beer. I see pictures of beer that I thought, “Why is it that color?” It’s going to turn me off to it. I’ve also seen pictures of beer that I’ve thought, “Man, that’s a pretty beer, and I think I’m going to go over there and have new one today.”

Patrick (01:05:44):
Yeah, nobody wants those brown IPAs that sometimes they come across, unfortunately.

James (01:05:50):
It happens.

Patrick (01:05:52):
I’d even make an argument of saying that even outside of the hazy IPA, I could see a place for this in West Coast. I’m trending, my personal drinking habits are trending back towards West Coast IPAs, and we’re seeing a massive push for that. It’s not a protein similar to an adjunct, where it’s going to be that thick, thick turbidity.

(01:06:16)
It’s sort of a gentle haze to it. You could probably beef up a West Coast IPA that doesn’t necessarily have to be too chunky, but still target that nice, brilliant color in a little bit of modesty there.

James (01:06:30):
Yeah, definitely good, but there’s a place for that. I agree with you. We make a lot of hazes up here, but I’ll have one every once in a while. I definitely am with you, Patrick. My drinking habits tend to skew towards the West Coast IPA or American Pale Ales, typically.

Patrick (01:06:56):
Yeah, I don’t want to tell our West Coast friends that New England’s transitioning back to their style of IPA, but we’ll keep that between us here.

James (01:07:06):
I don’t know if the markets up here is transitioning back, at least that everyone who walks through our door is, “What new hazes do you have?” It’s wild to me.

Patrick (01:07:15):
Yeah, it’s amazing.

Heather (01:07:17):
You are the birthplace of the New England IPA is my understanding of it. I have never been there, so I can’t say for sure, but my understanding of it is you guys are at the birthplace of it, so I don’t think it’s going to go anywhere anytime soon.

James (01:07:31):
Let’s hope not. That’s what keeps the lights on.

Toby (01:07:36):
Well, the low color wheat is certainly something for our listeners to try out, and it worked out for James. For those listening and want to give it a shot, reach out to someone here at Country Malt Group. We’ll certainly try to get some in your hands. We’re excited about it. James is excited about it, and we know you will be too.

(01:07:54)
James, anything you want to promote going on over there at Definitive? Anything coming up, events, new releases, et cetera, that listeners might be interested in?

James (01:08:04):
Off the top of my head, this isn’t going to air by then, but tomorrow’s our anniversary, so we’re turning seven tomorrow.

Toby (01:08:09):
Hey.

Heather (01:08:11):
Wow.

Toby (01:08:11):
Happy anniversary.

James (01:08:12):
Yeah, so it’s been a crazy week, but we’re pretty excited about that. I don’t know. If you’re in Portland, stop by, say hey, we got a lot of cool stuff going on. We’ve got a wrestling event this summer, so if you’re around in Portland, come say hi. I’d love to have a beer with you.

Toby (01:08:31):
There you go. Portland, Maine. Y’all got another location in Kittery?

James (01:08:35):
Yeah, I got a little tap room down there.

Toby (01:08:37):
Oh, very good.

James (01:08:40):
Like a little… I don’t know, 1500 square foot tap room. It’s pretty cute.

Toby (01:08:43):
Nice, nice. Well, really appreciate your time coming on, James, and really nice to meet you, and I appreciate you giving the low color wheat a try.

James (01:08:56):
Hey, no problem, guys.

Toby (01:08:57):
Well, we want to send a special thanks out to our guest today: Mike, Paul, Tyler, and Abi, and James from Definitive Brewing for jumping on to help us talk about those two new products, the low color wheat and the chit malt.

Heather (01:09:13):
Both of those products are now available in all of our warehouses, so make sure you reach out to your sales rep so that you can get your hands on them and try them.

Toby (01:09:22):
Very good. Brittany, Heather, y’all make it a great day.

Heather (01:09:26):
You make it a great day, Toby.

Toby (01:09:28):
You make it, and for those listeners out there, y’all make it a great day, and make sure you tune in next time. Subscribe, listen however you can get your podcast. Make sure you put it on your dial. We’ve got some good episodes coming up. Look forward to you chatting with y’all soon.

Brittany (01:09:44):
Bye, y’all.